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Thread: PSU Wizzards: Adapting a New Fanless ATX PSU to an Old AT Environment - AC Power Switch




  1. #1
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    Question PSU Wizzards: Adapting a New Fanless ATX PSU to an Old AT Environment - AC Power Switch

    Dear PSU Wizzards,

    I am upgrading an old system that must, for a long list of reasons, remain an old system, a 300 MHz Celeron on an Itox CB50-BX motherboard with 256 MB RAM. The machine is a controller for a digital audio mixer. It is an antique but a highly functional antique with no reasonable upgrade path to modern computer technology; the unit is no longer supported by its manufacturer. I'm in the midst of some upgrades and the PSU is one of those upgrades; the original PSU fan is much too noisy for the unit's environment. The original system uses an AT style PSU and is powered on from an AC rocker switch on the front panel; this type of PSU is apparently now obsolete (although some models, e.g., Sparkle, are still out there to purchase). This front panel AC rocker switch method of powering on the system must persist through my PSU upgrade. I've purchased a Seasonic fanless 400 watt ATX PSU. The new PSU has a convertible 20/24 pin power connector for the motherboard. The motherboard has a 20 pin power socket but it also has the P8/P9 sockets that the original 250 watt AT PSU uses.

    My question is this. Can I use the new ATX PSU with this system and still use the AC rocker switch on the front panel to power up the unit? As I understand it, pin 14 on the ATX style power connector carries the PS_ON signal and that is the means by which the ATX PSU senses when to fire up (on the momentary absence of the +3.3vdc or +5vdc on that pin 14). How do I get the ATX PSU to fire up using the front panel AC rocker switch? Is there a way to jumper the PSU or to wire it such that power is directly controlled from the AC power switch rather than indirectly controlled by the PS_ON signal from the motherboard power connector pin 14?

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: PSU Wizzards: Adapting a New Fanless ATX PSU to an Old AT Environment - AC Power Switch

    Welcome to Seasonic USA shows the following specs for the Seasonic 400 watt fanless psu:

    Model: Platinum-400 Fanless (SS-400FL2 Active PFC F3)



    Older systems like yours required most of the power to be supplied by the 3.3 volt and 5 volt rails. Modern power supplies provide very little power to these rails and the bulk of their power is delivered by the 12 volt rail. Looking at the Seasonic 860/1000 watt specs, there still isn't much power available for the 3.3 volt and 5 volt rails, where the maximum total output for both of these rails in only 125 watts.

    Model: Platinum-860/1000 (SS-860XP & SS-1000XP Active PFC F3)



    I don't know where you can buy a reasonably quiet older style power supply that will provide enough power to the 3.3 volt and 5 volt rails.

    Check out the ATX power supply revisions section at ATX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia where they say:
    The power distribution specification defined that most of the PSU's power should be provided on 5 V and 3.3 V rails, because most of the electronic components (CPU, RAM, chipset, PCI, AGP and ISA cards) used 5 V or 3.3 V for power supply. The 12 V rail was only used by fans and motors of peripheral devices (HDD, FDD, CD-ROM, etc.).

    The original ATX power supply specification was little revised until 2000.
    and Interchanging PSUs

    Although the ATX power supply specifications are mostly vertically compatible in both ways (both electrically and physically), there are potential issues with mixing old motherboards/systems with new PSUs and vice versa. The main issues to consider are the following:

    • The power allocation between 3.3 V, 5 V and 12 V rails are very different between older and newer ATX PSU designs, as well as between older and newer PC system designs.
    • Older PSUs may not have connectors which are required for newer PC systems to properly operate.
    • Newer systems generally have higher power requirements than older systems.

    This is a practical guidance what to mix and what not to mix:

    • Older systems (before Pentium 4 and Athlon XP platforms) were designed to draw most power from 5 V and 3.3 V rails.
    • Because of the DC-DC converters on the motherboard that convert 12 V to the low voltages required by the Intel Pentium 4 and AMD Athlon XP (and subsequent) processors, such systems draw most of their power from the 12 V rail.
    • Original ATX PSUs have power distribution designed for pre-P4/XP PCs. They lack the supplemental 4-pin 12-volt CPU power connector, so they most likely cannot be used with P4/XP or newer motherboards. Adapters do exist but power drain on the 12 V rail must be checked very carefully. There is a chance it can work without connecting the 4-pin 12 V connector, but caution is advised.[21][dead link]
    • ATX12V 1.x PSUs have power distribution designed for P4/XP PCs, but they are also greatly suitable for older PCs, since they give plenty of power (relative to old PCs' needs) both on 12 V and on 5 V/3.3 V. It is not recommended to use ATX12V 1.x PSUs on ATX12V 2.x motherboards because those systems require much more power on 12 V and much less on 3.3 V/5 V than ATX12V 1.x PSUs provide.
    • ATX12V 2.x PSUs have power distribution designed for late P4/XP PCs and for Athlon 64 and Core Duo PCs. They can be used with earlier P4/XP PCs, but the power distribution will be significantly suboptimal, so a more powerful ATX12V 2.0 PSU should be used to compensate for that discrepancy. ATX12V 2.x PSUs can also be used with pre-P4/XP systems, but the power distribution will be greatly suboptimal (12 V rails will be mostly unused, while the 3.3 V/5 V rails will be overloaded), so this is not recommended.
    • Systems that use an ISA bus should have a PSU that provides the −5 V rail, which became optional in ATX12V 1.2 and was subsequently phased out by manufacturers.

    Not all computers use standard, interchangeable ATX power supplies. In particular, some proprietary brand-name machines and high-end workstation and server designs do not and require an exactly matching power supply unit.
    What is the model name and model number of your former psu?
    Please post a picture of the psu label that shows the rail specifications and amperage and total wattage capacities.
    Q9650 @ 4.10GHz [9x456MHz]
    P35-DS4 [rev: 2.0] ~ Bios: F14
    4x2GB OCZ Reaper PC2-8500 1094MHz @5-5-5-15
    MSI N460GTX Hawk Talon Attack (1GB) video card <---- SLI ---->
    Seasonic SS-660XP2 80 Plus Platinum psu (660w)
    WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data)
    Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD (boot)
    SLI @ 16/4 works when running HyperSLI
    Cooler Master 120XL Seidon push/pull AIO cpu water cooling
    Cooler Master HAF XB computer case (RC-902XB-KKN1)
    Asus VH242H 24" monitor [1920x1080]
    MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) video card
    Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium
    HT|Omega Claro plus+ sound card
    CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD UPS
    E6300 (R0) @ 3.504GHz [8x438MHz] ~~ P35-DS3L [rev: 1.0] ~ Bios: F9 ~~ 4x2GB Kingston HyperX T1 PC2-8500, 876MHz @4-4-4-10
    Seasonic X650 80+ gold psu (650w) ~~ Xigmatek Balder HDT 1283 cpu cooler ~~ Cooler Master CM 690 case (RC-690-KKN1-GP)
    Samsung 830 128GB SSD MZ-7PC128B/WW (boot) ~~ WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data) ~~ ZM-MFC2 fan controller
    HT|Omega Striker 7.1 sound card ~~ Asus VH242H monitor [1920x1080] ~~ Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium ~~ CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD U.P.S
    .


  3. #3
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    Default Re: PSU Wizzards: Adapting a New Fanless ATX PSU to an Old AT Environment - AC Power Switch

    Thanks for your interest, profJim,

    Here is the equivalent power supply to the OEM model -

    AT Power Supply 250 Watt SPI-250G

    Any ideas about wiring the ATX PSU to behave like the AT PSU for AC power? Thanks!

  4. #4
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    Default Re: PSU Wizzards: Adapting a New Fanless ATX PSU to an Old AT Environment - AC Power Switch

    I ran across that same web page while doing some checking and they only listed the 5 volt rail as having a 26 amp output. The most important thing is to know what the maximum combined wattage is for the 3.3 and 5 volt rails for the AT power supply. Typical AT psu values for each rail would be about 26 - 32 amps capacity for each rail. Your new psu has a maximum combined capacity of 100 watts for both of these rails.

    If your motherboard has a compatible 20-pin ATX connector, you should be able to replace the 120 volt AC power switch with a small momentary ON push button switch where these wires would go to the light green "power-ON" pin and a black ground wire. These are the same two connections that are used when doing a power supply paperclip test.



    This is an example where the wire or paperclip is connected to the bottom of the connector.

    The new on/off switches wires would need to make a permanent connection to the light green and black wires on the top of the connector. You should be able to buy a momentary ON switch from Radio Shack or a local PC shop. You can test this by carefully using a paperclip or short wire to jumper the light green and black wires from the top of the connector when the 20-pin connector is plugged in to the motherboard.
    You need to read the information in the last link in this post.

    See All about the various PC power supply cables and connectors - Playtool.com for more information about cables and connectors.
    From this link:
    ATX 20 pin main power cable



    There is a lot more detailed information about 20-pin and 24-pin connects in this section of the web page.

    A short history of PC power supply voltage rails - Playtool.com has useful information about older and newer power supply rails.

    Your new power supply has OCP (Over Current Protection) for each rail. If your system tries to draw too much current from any of the psu rails, the power supply will immediately shut down.

    I expect that you will have some more questions.
    Q9650 @ 4.10GHz [9x456MHz]
    P35-DS4 [rev: 2.0] ~ Bios: F14
    4x2GB OCZ Reaper PC2-8500 1094MHz @5-5-5-15
    MSI N460GTX Hawk Talon Attack (1GB) video card <---- SLI ---->
    Seasonic SS-660XP2 80 Plus Platinum psu (660w)
    WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data)
    Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD (boot)
    SLI @ 16/4 works when running HyperSLI
    Cooler Master 120XL Seidon push/pull AIO cpu water cooling
    Cooler Master HAF XB computer case (RC-902XB-KKN1)
    Asus VH242H 24" monitor [1920x1080]
    MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) video card
    Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium
    HT|Omega Claro plus+ sound card
    CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD UPS
    E6300 (R0) @ 3.504GHz [8x438MHz] ~~ P35-DS3L [rev: 1.0] ~ Bios: F9 ~~ 4x2GB Kingston HyperX T1 PC2-8500, 876MHz @4-4-4-10
    Seasonic X650 80+ gold psu (650w) ~~ Xigmatek Balder HDT 1283 cpu cooler ~~ Cooler Master CM 690 case (RC-690-KKN1-GP)
    Samsung 830 128GB SSD MZ-7PC128B/WW (boot) ~~ WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data) ~~ ZM-MFC2 fan controller
    HT|Omega Striker 7.1 sound card ~~ Asus VH242H monitor [1920x1080] ~~ Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium ~~ CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD U.P.S
    .


  5. #5
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    Default Re: PSU Wizzards: Adapting a New Fanless ATX PSU to an Old AT Environment - AC Power Switch

    This is at the end of the Playtool.com A short history of PC power supply voltage rails article:

    PSU Wizzards: Adapting a New Fanless ATX PSU to an Old AT Environment - AC Power Switch-short-history-atx-versions-playtool-com-jpg
    Q9650 @ 4.10GHz [9x456MHz]
    P35-DS4 [rev: 2.0] ~ Bios: F14
    4x2GB OCZ Reaper PC2-8500 1094MHz @5-5-5-15
    MSI N460GTX Hawk Talon Attack (1GB) video card <---- SLI ---->
    Seasonic SS-660XP2 80 Plus Platinum psu (660w)
    WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data)
    Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD (boot)
    SLI @ 16/4 works when running HyperSLI
    Cooler Master 120XL Seidon push/pull AIO cpu water cooling
    Cooler Master HAF XB computer case (RC-902XB-KKN1)
    Asus VH242H 24" monitor [1920x1080]
    MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) video card
    Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium
    HT|Omega Claro plus+ sound card
    CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD UPS
    E6300 (R0) @ 3.504GHz [8x438MHz] ~~ P35-DS3L [rev: 1.0] ~ Bios: F9 ~~ 4x2GB Kingston HyperX T1 PC2-8500, 876MHz @4-4-4-10
    Seasonic X650 80+ gold psu (650w) ~~ Xigmatek Balder HDT 1283 cpu cooler ~~ Cooler Master CM 690 case (RC-690-KKN1-GP)
    Samsung 830 128GB SSD MZ-7PC128B/WW (boot) ~~ WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data) ~~ ZM-MFC2 fan controller
    HT|Omega Striker 7.1 sound card ~~ Asus VH242H monitor [1920x1080] ~~ Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium ~~ CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD U.P.S
    .


  6. #6
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    Default Re: PSU Wizzards: Adapting a New Fanless ATX PSU to an Old AT Environment - AC Power Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by bitSync View Post
    Thanks for your interest, profJim,

    Here is the equivalent power supply to the OEM model -

    AT Power Supply 250 Watt SPI-250G

    Any ideas about wiring the ATX PSU to behave like the AT PSU for AC power? Thanks!
    Assuming that the PSU in the link provided is an accurate analog of your current PSU, I have a few comments:

    The technical specs of the AT PSU described in the link does not list a 3.3V rail at all. Further research said AT style mother boards created their own 3.3V supply by deriving it from one of the other rails, +5V or +12V.

    Next, we see a -5V rail on the PSU in the link. That rail does not exist on an ATX PSU. Whether or not your board requires the -5V rail, I don't know.

    Fortunately your mother board can accept a 20 pin ATX plug, otherwise adapting any ATX PSU for AT P8 and P8 jacks would be a major issue for you. Apparently your board does not need the -5V rail since it can use an ATX 20 pin connector.

    Checking the specs of the latest Seasonic 400W fanless PSU, the specs show a max of 20A on the +5V rail, even if no power is drawn from the +3.3V rail. As Prof Jim said, the largest Seasonic PSUs supply a max of 25A on the +5V rail.

    I agree with Prof Jim's analysis of the power switch situation. AT PSUs had the AC power switch of the PSU on the PC case. AT PSUs did not have electronic on/off power control as ATX PSU's do. His suggestion of connecting a momentary switch to the appropriate pins on the 20/24 pin plug on the PSU should work.

    OTOH, the pin arrangement of the 20 pin socket on your board should probably be verified before using the new PSU, and it might be possible that it does provide electronic shutdown via the OS, and may even have a header for a standard ATX PSU/mobo style electronic power switch.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: PSU Wizzards: Adapting a New Fanless ATX PSU to an Old AT Environment - AC Power Switch

    A google image search using: psu at 300 watt power label provides many examples of older AT power supply labels.
    Many of the images are for no-name (el cheapo?) power supplies, but this label tells the story:



    Note the combined 3.3V + 5V maximum supported wattage is 200 watts and the maximum combined wattage for all of these rails is 400 watts. Your new psu is rated for 100 watts for the 3.3V + 5V rails which is only half of rating in the of the SS-400FB unit.

    Most of the other older AT labels have a combined wattage of 160 - 170 watts for the 3.3V + 5V rails.

    The question is what is the maximum combined wattage for your system with a high load condition.

    Volts X Amps = Watts, but there is no easy way to know how much combined power the 3.3V and 5V rails require during normal and/or maximum usage.

    100 watts of combined 3.3V + 5V power might not be enough to prevent your psu from shutting down if the OCP for either of these rails kicks in.
    Q9650 @ 4.10GHz [9x456MHz]
    P35-DS4 [rev: 2.0] ~ Bios: F14
    4x2GB OCZ Reaper PC2-8500 1094MHz @5-5-5-15
    MSI N460GTX Hawk Talon Attack (1GB) video card <---- SLI ---->
    Seasonic SS-660XP2 80 Plus Platinum psu (660w)
    WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data)
    Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD (boot)
    SLI @ 16/4 works when running HyperSLI
    Cooler Master 120XL Seidon push/pull AIO cpu water cooling
    Cooler Master HAF XB computer case (RC-902XB-KKN1)
    Asus VH242H 24" monitor [1920x1080]
    MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) video card
    Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium
    HT|Omega Claro plus+ sound card
    CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD UPS
    E6300 (R0) @ 3.504GHz [8x438MHz] ~~ P35-DS3L [rev: 1.0] ~ Bios: F9 ~~ 4x2GB Kingston HyperX T1 PC2-8500, 876MHz @4-4-4-10
    Seasonic X650 80+ gold psu (650w) ~~ Xigmatek Balder HDT 1283 cpu cooler ~~ Cooler Master CM 690 case (RC-690-KKN1-GP)
    Samsung 830 128GB SSD MZ-7PC128B/WW (boot) ~~ WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data) ~~ ZM-MFC2 fan controller
    HT|Omega Striker 7.1 sound card ~~ Asus VH242H monitor [1920x1080] ~~ Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium ~~ CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD U.P.S
    .


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    Default Re: PSU Wizzards: Adapting a New Fanless ATX PSU to an Old AT Environment - AC Power Switch

    VERIFY that each of the wire/pin outs of you current MB are pin to pin compatible with whatever PSU you decide upon. First!!!

    "Dad, is that smoke coming from your computer?" Or worse ......

    From All about the various PC power supply cables and connectors
    Code:
    Dell used to ship many computers which used motherboards and power supplies which looked like plain old ATX but were not really ATX at all. If you plugged a real ATX power supply into the motherboard then things went kaboom (or frzzzzzap or ...). Sadly, some large computer vendors like to lock customers into buying upgrades from them rather from a third party. That's nasty enough but Dell built their non-standard computers and motherboards with what looked like standard ATX components. You only found out otherwise once sparks started flying. The Dell PCs which were carrying this ticking time-bomb were made between 1996 and 2000. If you're replacing a Dell power supply from this era then you should call Dell and make sure it's not a proprietary design. And if they say yes then be sure to voice your displeasure. This is an evil business practice which should stop.
    Heaven forbid who ever manufactured this as of yet unknown MB/system decided to use the above OEM Dell parts in it's manufacturing to save costs.

    Old addage but applies here nonetheless, The devil is in the details. Please see #1 in my Sig.

    OT: Dang, another "Watch the LEGO Movie free' post. parsec, friends of yours taunting you about Lego's again? Daunting task I know but did you ever receive your, ahem, "reward'? I'm outta here to kill some more spam.
    #1 - Please, when seeking help, enter the make and model of ALL parts that your system is comprised of in your Signature, or at least the model #'s in your System Specs, then "Save' it.
    ____If you are overclocking, underclocking, or undervolting any parts, informing us of this and their values would prove beneficial in helping you.

    #2 - G.Skill RAM Configurator for your boardSamsung Memory for your boardLatest AMD Chipset Drivers/WindowsLatest AMD Graphics Drivers/WindowsLatest Intel Drivers

    #3 - Please use the eXtreme Outer Vision Power Supply Calculator found HERE to determine if it might be your PSU at issue.
    ____Consider your PSU to be the foundation from which all else is built upon. Anything built upon a weak foundation is poorly built.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: PSU Wizzards: Adapting a New Fanless ATX PSU to an Old AT Environment - AC Power Switch

    VERIFY that each of the wire/pin outs of you current MB are pin to pin compatible with whatever PSU you decide upon. First!!!

    "Dad, is that smoke coming from your computer?" Or worse ......

    From All about the various PC power supply cables and connectors
    Code:
    Dell used to ship many computers which used motherboards and power supplies which looked like 
    plain old ATX but were not really ATX at all. If you plugged a real ATX power supply into the 
    motherboard then things went kaboom (or frzzzzzap or ...). Sadly, some large computer vendors 
    like to lock customers into buying upgrades from them rather from a third party. That's nasty 
    enough but Dell built their non-standard computers and motherboards with what looked like 
    standard ATX components. You only found out otherwise once sparks started flying. The Dell PCs 
    which were carrying this ticking time-bomb were made between 1996 and 2000. 
    If you're replacing a Dell power supply from this era then you should call Dell and make sure 
    t's nota proprietary design. And if they say yes then be sure to voice your displeasure. 
    This is an evil business practice which should stop.
    Heaven forbid who ever manufactured this as of yet unknown MB/system decided to use the above OEM Dell parts in it's manufacturing to save costs.
    EXCELLENT ADVICE!!

    Sorry wardog, but I beat you to it and already banned the "Watch Lego" spammer and sent his spam thread to never-never land.
    I noticed his spam thread when it was only one minute old and you were busy posting your reply in this thread.
    Q9650 @ 4.10GHz [9x456MHz]
    P35-DS4 [rev: 2.0] ~ Bios: F14
    4x2GB OCZ Reaper PC2-8500 1094MHz @5-5-5-15
    MSI N460GTX Hawk Talon Attack (1GB) video card <---- SLI ---->
    Seasonic SS-660XP2 80 Plus Platinum psu (660w)
    WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data)
    Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD (boot)
    SLI @ 16/4 works when running HyperSLI
    Cooler Master 120XL Seidon push/pull AIO cpu water cooling
    Cooler Master HAF XB computer case (RC-902XB-KKN1)
    Asus VH242H 24" monitor [1920x1080]
    MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) video card
    Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium
    HT|Omega Claro plus+ sound card
    CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD UPS
    E6300 (R0) @ 3.504GHz [8x438MHz] ~~ P35-DS3L [rev: 1.0] ~ Bios: F9 ~~ 4x2GB Kingston HyperX T1 PC2-8500, 876MHz @4-4-4-10
    Seasonic X650 80+ gold psu (650w) ~~ Xigmatek Balder HDT 1283 cpu cooler ~~ Cooler Master CM 690 case (RC-690-KKN1-GP)
    Samsung 830 128GB SSD MZ-7PC128B/WW (boot) ~~ WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data) ~~ ZM-MFC2 fan controller
    HT|Omega Striker 7.1 sound card ~~ Asus VH242H monitor [1920x1080] ~~ Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium ~~ CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD U.P.S
    .


  10. #10
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    Default Re: PSU Wizzards: Adapting a New Fanless ATX PSU to an Old AT Environment - AC Power Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by profJim View Post
    EXCELLENT ADVICE!!

    Sorry wardog, but I beat you to it and already banned the "Watch Lego" spammer and sent his spam thread to never-never land.
    I noticed his spam thread when it was only one minute old and you were busy posting your reply in this thread.
    Oh man, missed her... uhh, it again!!

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