PDA

View Full Version : Setting up raid



ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-06-2002, 02:26 AM
I'm getting my hands on a WD 40 gig HDD, and I'm interested in setting it up in a raid setup. How exactly would I go about doing this?

Andy
08-06-2002, 09:58 PM
sorry to dissapoint you, but to use RAID you need at least 2 hard drives (which you plan to put into the array)

Wiggo
08-06-2002, 10:38 PM
Two identical drives really, to be trouble free and perform smoothly. ;)
:beer: :beer: :beer:

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-07-2002, 03:44 AM
Well, if you look in my signature you'll notice that I am currently running an IBM 41 GIG drive 7200RPM. ANd like I said in the first post I'm getting my hands on a WD 40GIG 7200RPM. This means I will have 2 drives. Now that we have established this. How do I set up raid? One on master one on slave on the primary channel? Cause currently I have 2 cd-rom drives set up on secondary. Also being my drive is 41 gig and the WD drive is 40 gig would this matter? Or is this NOT identical. Thank You

FLaCo
08-07-2002, 06:19 AM
I dunno if your Motherboard has it but you need a Raid controller. If you do then you should have 4 IDE Channels. For a Raid_0 setup, you will need to put one HD into one channel and the other HD into the other channel seprate from each other with two different IDE cables. No slave for a RAID_0. WiGGo meant identical when he said it. By Identical he means same size, model, brand everything; to make the setup run as smooth as possible. After you have that done you should be able to get into the RAID's manufacturers BIOS....prolly Ctrl+H on your startup screen. Create the array and select the BOOT drive. Restart and install windows because everything will be erased when you create the array.

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-07-2002, 06:42 AM
This woudl be doing raid through the firmware I want to raid through software I know its a bit slower but I know its possible.

FLaCo
08-07-2002, 07:12 AM
I can't help you on that one. I thought you had a Controller. Maybe someone else can give you a hand.

Moctezuma05
08-08-2002, 10:20 AM
I just bought a Soyo SY-P4S Dragon Ultra and i would be able to setup RAID with it but whats the difference between regular setup and RAID? Is it that much faster that I should consider buying another hard drive to setup? The money for the hdd isnt a problem but would it run faster if I had 2 7400 rpm hard drives?

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-08-2002, 10:32 AM
Raid performs at twice the speed usually. Because each drive would do half the work. A 20 second job would be done in about 10 seconds. Where do I get a raid controller card? Cause I don't plan on switching out my mobo anytime soon. Atleast not now because my board can still support everything that is currently out there.

FLaCo
08-08-2002, 11:11 AM
Think of it this way...when you save a file into a RAID array half of a file will go to HD and the other Half to the second HD. So the seek time for that particular will be much less becuase both HD's are only looking for half a file not one WHOLE file; even though that is the result you get a whole file. You OS will recognize your array as one whole big HD. Two 40 = "one"80 .

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-08-2002, 11:28 AM
woh woh woh so let me get this straight. Windows will see an 80 gig HD? not two 40 gigs?

FLaCo
08-08-2002, 11:33 AM
Correct...it unites the two..giving you a total. So a RAID is one big harddrive when in reality its two. You can do anything you want as if you were with a normal HDD. You can partition it as many times as you want. So yea you won't see 2 HD in windows you see one.

Moctezuma05
08-08-2002, 11:44 AM
wow thats sweet! I cant wait till i get my new hard dries to set that up. Ok one last question does this setup use regular ide cables or do u need a different type of cable?

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-08-2002, 11:47 AM
that's ausome!!!!!!! now if I had it set up with two partitions and formatted the first one. would it wipe out the second one? like it was in fact a regular drive?

Beefy
08-08-2002, 11:50 AM
Simple answer.. A hardware-based RAID 0 will make the drives involved function exactly the same as one physical drive would.

And yes, it uses normal IDE cables. All that is different is where you connect it (to the RAID IDE ports, not the standard IDE ports)

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-08-2002, 11:55 AM
so basically from a fresh load it would install half an installation of windows on one drive and half on the other? This is assuming it is one big drive. Then again lets say that is the case. What happens if I pull out one of the dries upon boot up? :?:

FLaCo
08-08-2002, 12:00 PM
LOL..what ^BeeFy^ said...hehe

MOCTEZNUMA...remember to get the same Brand,Model and size as your other drive. This way it will prevent conflicts the array might give you in having to different drives.

Wiggo
08-08-2002, 12:01 PM
You'll have nothing to work with. ;)
:beer: :beer: :beer:

Beefy
08-08-2002, 12:02 PM
In a RAID 0, don't think about it as installing half the OS on one drive and half of the other. It simply shares the space and merges it into one. That's also one of the not-so-nice features of RAID 0. If you lose any drive in the config, then everything is gone.

However, the way I see it, it's still better than one drive. ie: in your case, you've got two 40GB drives to make an 80GB. So let's compare having 2 40's to having one 80:

If one of the 40's failed, you lose 80GB of data.
If the 80 failed, you lose 80GB of data.

Cost to replace one of the 40's is a lot less than replacing an 80GB HDD...

Hope this is making some kind of sense.

FLaCo
08-08-2002, 12:05 PM
I dunno why you would want to do that RD but Windows will not boot. I never done that but thats what would happen. The only negative thing that a RAID might have is that if the array gets corrupted you lose everything. One hard goes down out of the two...say bye bye to eveything.

That half thing is only to give you an idea.

FLaCo
08-08-2002, 12:07 PM
Fast on the submit button huh beefy...

Oh, and that remark about the whole 40 , 80 thing made a alot of sense...gj you shed some light to the RAID.

Beefy
08-08-2002, 12:25 PM
Maybe someone around here should write an article on RAID setups...

*looks around*

Anyone?

......

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-08-2002, 12:32 PM
lol.........well what is the likelyness of a raid array goign down? Is it very unlikely or VERY possible. I mean is it like the phone going out? Or can it go out as often as the power going out.

Beefy
08-08-2002, 12:46 PM
About as much chance as any other computer part going ka-poot.

Seriously, don't worry about it so much. RAIDs are fairly easy to implement, secure enough that most major servers will have a RAID of some kind (although a different kind of array.. but that's not the point.. :D ) and if set up correctly, you shouldn't have to worry about it again. In theory...

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-08-2002, 12:57 PM
well considering I have the majority of my "personal" stuff backed up like music and stuff like that. If the raid array WERE to go down. It would be easily recoverable hardware wise right? I mean I can always reload the software right? Or is this permanent as in raid controller dead replace mobo or card or replace a drive kind of thing?

Beefy
08-08-2002, 01:06 PM
... Accidents happen. Who knows what could be damaged. There's as much chance of the RAID failing as there is of anything else failing. Think of it this way... How many times have you seen an IDE controller die? That's basically the same as a RAID controller (sort of anyways). And if the RAID went down, it would basically be the same as a HDD going down.

Personally, I'd stop thinking so negative. RAID are fairly simple to get running, and once it's up, you don't really need to worry about too much. Just give it a shot and see how it goes. As long as you are careful nothing should go wrong.

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-08-2002, 01:24 PM
your right.....I never thought about IDE going downnow that I think about it.

Beefy
08-08-2002, 01:40 PM
You're just being cautious, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. :)

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-08-2002, 02:08 PM
ok cool.....one last question though. can you link me to an IDE raid controller card? ;) ;)

or to make things easier guide me on how to set up raid through software and not firmware.

Beefy
08-08-2002, 02:19 PM
Hardware controller, I don't know what's good and what's not. The only RAID controllers I've used are on motherboards. Some of the other guys might be able to help you with that department. What I can say is just search around for a card that is capable of RAID 0. That's all you need to achieve, so don't bother going for a big fancy card that can do RAID 0, 1, 0+1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.... it will cost a lot more and isn't needed.

With software RAID, you are severly limited to what you can actually do. To achieve software RAID, you need to have an Operating system installed to be able to set it up, which then means that your drive that your operating system is on cannot be part of the RAID configuration. Plus software RAIDs aren't all that great to begin with. You don't really get the same benefits as a hardware RAID.

Wiggo
08-08-2002, 04:08 PM
Beefy[/size]]
Maybe someone around here should write an article on RAID setups...

*looks around*

Anyone?

......



Gee havn't ya done that yet? :D

==============================================

Session Start (MSN - Wiggo (B):Beefy): Thu Aug 08 13:50:07 2002
Beefy: someone on TT should write a guide to RAID.... instead of explaining it each and every time.. :)
Wiggo (B): good to see that ya volunteered;)
Session Close (Beefy): Thu Aug 08 13:55:50 2002

==============================================

<center>:cheers:</center>

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-08-2002, 04:38 PM
Well currently I have windows xp professional installed on a 41gb hard drive. You need 2 to acheive raid. So there for in a software raid I would need three drives? One for the OS and two for the raid?

Beefy
08-08-2002, 05:20 PM
As far as I know, yeah.

Wiggo
08-08-2002, 05:25 PM
Yes for a software RAID you will as the os can't be raided in that fashion. :(
You'd be much better off with a proper RAID controller fitted. ;)
<center>:cheers:</center>

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-08-2002, 05:36 PM
ok.......I"m getting myself a raid controller card I'm not about to spend money on a new mobo. Especially when I ahve so much growth ahead of me with this current one. I'll have an IBM 41Gig and a WD 40Gig drive hooked up to it. I found a controller card but in the description it says something about supporting up to ATA 33. What's up with that? Tell me if this is what I want or not.

http://www.microtechcomputers.com/product.asp?Sku=IO3W5200

Wiggo
08-08-2002, 07:14 PM
Yes make the most of it as the Athlon(socketA) will replace the Duron very soon when "Clawhammer" arrives most likely and alot only expect a few years left in socket A. ;)
<center>:cheers:</center>

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-09-2002, 02:24 AM
um well..........is that the card I need or not? lol It says something about 33Mhz. What was that about?

Wiggo
08-09-2002, 02:58 AM
Well I figure that next year about this time I'll be thinking of a "Clawhammer" setup as by that time any teething probs will be worked out. ;)
Hopefully a few ppl may want me to build few of them. :D
<center>:cheers:</center>

Beefy
08-09-2002, 06:59 AM
um well..........is that the card I need or not? lol It says something about 33Mhz. What was that about?

:) That's almost what you want. You were right though, it only supports up to ATA33. Mainly because it's an older card. There should be plenty more out there. A couple good names to look for are Promise and Highpoint.

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-09-2002, 07:23 AM
I think I've heard of promise.....in fact I have most definitly heard of promise. Can you give me an estimated price range though?

Beefy
08-09-2002, 08:35 AM
I got no idea. From a very rough guess, you shouldn't need to spend any more than $100 US (a VERY rough guess there...)

EDIT: Don't know if this will help, but try here: http://tweaktown.pricegrabber.com/search_gen.php/?catzero=&firstsearch=1&topcat_id=1&form_keyword=FastTrak100+TX2&ut=83aa068e2903922b&Search.x=27&Search.y=7

Moctezuma05
08-09-2002, 08:42 AM
I was looking around and I found some Promis cards for around $80 US and they had some lower cost ones for around $45. I will make a link to the page I was looking at and it has link to the stores, its a bit long but you should be able to find something out of the lot.

http://www.nextag.com/serv/main/buyer/OutPDir.jsp?nxtg=312a34_EC6EA810274B3BEF&node=&otherForm=n&doSearch=y&advanced=n&searchnode=-1&search=ata%20raid%20card&template=keyword

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-09-2002, 08:52 AM
MY GOD........that's alot of money there!!!!!I was thinking maybe more in the range of 30-40. heh I'll look into it though.

Beefy
08-09-2002, 09:09 AM
Unless you really need / want a RAID setup, I'd hold off for a while. With so many things just around the corner, it could be worthwhile waiting a little bit and seeing what happens then.

Moctezuma05
08-09-2002, 09:46 AM
Whats the difference between the differnt type of RAID like I have heard every 1 talk about RAID 0 but what about the other ones like 1 and 0+1? Are these faster than RAID 0?

FLaCo
08-09-2002, 10:07 AM
The Raid_0 setup is geared toward performance with fast write and read speeds and only require two HD's on two seperate Channels. A Raid_1 is mainly for security i beleve it mirrors everything you save on one HDD to the other someone correct me if i am wrong. A RAID_0+1 is lil bit of both with performance and security but this one can get expensive since you will need 4HDD for this setup. It uses the two for a RAID_0 and another two for RAID_1.
Again correct me if i am wrong but i think that is the idea.

Beefy
08-09-2002, 10:09 AM
Basics of RAID (very basic):

RAID 0 - basically turns multiple drives into one logical drive.

RAID 1 - Mirroring / duplexing. Uses multiple drives and creates mirror images of data on each drive. Useful for redundancy / safety.

RAID 2 / 3 / 4 - No longer used

RAID 5 - Uses three or more drives, stores information across the drives and also includes a 'parity checkbit' on one of them. Basically, you can lose a drive, replace it with a blank one and it can reconstruct the data.

FLaCo
08-09-2002, 10:14 AM
Beefy why do i make everything so complicated...lol...

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-09-2002, 10:17 AM
Unless you really need / want a RAID setup, I'd hold off for a while. With so many things just around the corner, it could be worthwhile waiting a little bit and seeing what happens then.


that's true.......I mean between the NV30 and AMD's Hammer if the hammer is sucessful in terms of heat and speed and compatibility. I am DEFINITLY upgrading. Also doom 3.......I will definitly make a side note to buy a mobo with raid capabilities. :D

Beefy
08-09-2002, 11:09 AM
Beefy why do i make everything so complicated...lol...

Hehehe.. I just couldn't be bothered putting in a big explanation.

I did forget RAID 0+1 though, which is normally four HDDs. Two of the drives use RAID 0 to basically make one logical drive, which is then mirrored onto the other two drives. Combines the best elements from both methods, although costs more (naturally, four drives instead of two)

Wiggo
08-09-2002, 12:41 PM
One big advantage of the RAID 0+1 setup is that if you loose a HDD you don't loose the system. :thumb:
Just put a new drive in and the RAID can then be repaired back to it's original state. ;)
<center>:cheers:</center>

Beefy
08-09-2002, 01:21 PM
if you are lucky enough, you can lose two drives and still have it working.. depending on which two die. :)

ChampionOfGod
08-09-2002, 08:45 PM
:) That's almost what you want. You were right though, it only supports up to ATA33. Mainly because it's an older card. There should be plenty more out there. A couple good names to look for are Promise and Highpoint.


go here....
http://www.directron.com/ide.html

iam getting one of this soon
: party ha

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-10-2002, 02:32 AM
dude that's a good price. I wonder if I should get the ATA133 one for expansion purposes if I ever upgrade my drives to that speed.

Wiggo
08-10-2002, 06:51 AM
It can't hurt as it's backwards compatible. ;)
:beer: :beer: :beer:

FLaCo
08-10-2002, 09:33 AM
Yea that is a very good price...and its a Promise...good deal.

WIGGO how do you do it...Almost 11000 Posts...man that alot....:beer:

Wiggo
08-10-2002, 12:50 PM
I type too much and badly need a life? :?:
:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

drpeterbright
08-12-2002, 01:26 AM
:beer: I think that it's because he has so much knowledge it keeps leaking out to make room for more. :cheers:

zeradul
08-12-2002, 11:50 AM
I agree, I would hate to put together an expensive RAID setup to have it out-performed a less expensive, single drive in two months by the next technology (serial ATA)

And one thing that I don't think was quite covered well enough, let this be known, that if some bad sectors occur on ONE of the drives, (or other various problem with one drive only) will result in the loss of ALL the data on BOTH drives in nearly all cases.

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-12-2002, 11:53 AM
well I learnt alot and I'm saying NO!! to raid. raid is bad. My IBM drive will suffice. I just wanna know why it scores soooooooo low in pcmark 2002 I'm getting like um 506? while my friend has a WD 40 gig 7200 RPM and is getting over 700. his drive raped mine. but IBM drives have faster seek times then wd's I have 8.5 and he has 8.9. Why is this?

zeradul
08-12-2002, 12:07 PM
I just wanna know why it scores soooooooo low in pcmark 2002 I'm getting like um 506?
Because PCMARK 2002 is GARBAGE. The new 'Special Edition' WD drives are getting scores of 1400. Are they THREE times as fast as your drive? Absolutly NOT. The benchmark is Garbage.

You scored 506. 506 WHAT? And that is my point. Its a number that doesn't mean ANYTHING.

Beefy
08-12-2002, 12:48 PM
Basically what zeradul said. Benchmarks don't really count for all that much. Most people just like benchmarking so they can say how good their computer is.. theoretically.. :)

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-12-2002, 01:31 PM
good point good point. so my drive is "performing" just as good as anyone elses 7200 rpm drive right? if not better cause of that faster .4ms seek time. I have cooling on my drive so I don't have to worry about the ibm drive dieing on me.

Beefy
08-12-2002, 02:14 PM
forget benchmarking for a moment. Are you happy with the performance of your HDD? If you are, then don't worry about it. Leave it alone. IF it's obviously not performing as well as it should be, then start checking things out...

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-12-2002, 02:15 PM
It's fine I don't think I would even notice it if something were wrong.

zeradul
08-13-2002, 12:25 AM
Benchmarks don't really count for all that much.
No! I did NOT say that ! I'm just saying that THIS benchmark score shouldn't be taken seriously, AT ALL.

As I said before, a single WD Special Edition scored 1400+ in this thread, with even some RAID 0 configs scoring less. While many single 7200 drives are scoring in the 600-700's.

So we can conclude, that this benchmark is probably testing ONLY burst speed. And since the single WD drive has 8 megs of RAM on it, It performs phenomonally in a 6 meg WRITE test. But we all know what is really happening, the ram is 1,000 times faster than the hard drive and is just caching the 6 meg file, which gives it a very inaccurate score which means, crappy benchmark.

What it comes down to this. All 'good brands' of 7200 rpm drives made in the last 2-3 years are going to perform within a small margin of each other. In fact, I would bet that margin is 25% or less. Which means, if the slowest hard drive can read at 7 megs per second, the fastest can't read more than 9 megs per second.

My suggestion to you is that if you really want to test your hard drive against your buddies drive, use HDTach. (go look for it in the HD forum) Because at least the hard drive part of PCMARK 2002 is a complete joke.

----

P.S. ATA133 will be a skipped standard. Motherboards and HD makers have announced plans to use Serial ATA 150 in the near future, with no mention of ever adopting ATA133.

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-13-2002, 01:06 AM
I'm looking for hdtach now. Is it a free utility? Also I was wondering what was happening with ata133 cause maxtor is the only company that is making ata133 drives. And I am not buying a maxtor its IBM and WD for me.

zeradul
08-13-2002, 03:04 AM
Well, Maxtor is just looking for another gimic to sell drives. They first put ATA133 on their 5400 rpm drives (LOL) which of course barely see any benefit from being ATA66, Much less ATA100 or ATA133 ! Hahahaha.

ReSpAwN DeMoN
08-13-2002, 03:43 AM
ata133 on a 5400rpm drive? HA what a joke.

Beefy
08-13-2002, 07:41 AM
No! I did NOT say that ! I'm just saying that THIS benchmark score shouldn't be taken seriously, AT ALL.


Sorry, my bad. All I was getting at though is that as long as your system is performing OK, there's no point looking deeply into benchmark results.

zeradul
08-13-2002, 09:57 AM
Beefy, I kinda knew what you were getting at, but I needed to make it clear that many Benchmarks are VERY representative of quality, capability, etc.

:thumb: :thumb:

two5om
08-15-2002, 01:20 AM
ReSpAwN DeMoN

When it comes to RAIDing your drives together there are usually 2 common methods.

If you decide to go for RAID 0 then this will enable striping but remember this is without any parity which means this method will not be able to error check your data that will reside on your drives. If you wish for parity then you will have to configure your drives as RAID 5. The reason why striping is ideal for performance is that with this configuration it breaks up your data into equal pieces depending on how many drives you are using and stores each piece of data on each one of the hard drives so when it comes time for the user to recover the data it is then accessed simultaneously therefore you could say that the data recovery is practically doubled if you have RAID 0 a pair of drives.

RAID 1 is for mirroring mode which basically makes 2 copies of your data on each one of the drives. This is ideal in regards to data recovery in the case of one of your drives dying on you. For example if you are using a pair of 40GB drives which totals up to 80GB of storage you will only be able to using half of that which leaves the user with only 40GB of storage space to utilise.

I also learnt that the drives are required to be identical. Usually when I've seen people implement a RAID array they usually buy a pair of identical drives but I noticed that your drives are identical in size but not in brand name. It would be an idea to find out about that first. I think as long as they are identical in size then all should be well.

ReSpAwN DeMoN, there is a bit of configuring that goes into RAID but first you should ask yourself what sort of a configuration would you like to achieve by using RAID. Generally you'll find the following:

RAID 0 = Performance / Speed
RAID 1 = Backing up / Recovery

Each method has its advantages and disadvantages depending on what the user wishes for. Also there are approximately a total of 10 RAID arrays to choose from but you find that most of them would generally suit servers.

Keep us posted about how you go with RAIDing your drives together.... :thumb:

Beefy
08-15-2002, 07:30 AM
Nice post there dude, but we've basically covered all that already.. :) Didn't want to get into too much detail with parity bit checks and the like...

two5om
08-15-2002, 08:54 PM
Hehe Beefy

I had a feeling that it was a bit much but it was my very first post in the TT forums so I think I went a little all out, soz guys.... :p

I would like to say that I think that the TT forums is one of the best ones I have ever seen. What can I say, its got it all.... :D

zeradul
08-16-2002, 06:20 AM
Long posts are good! They generally mean that the writer has something worth reading! And we can't have too many posters in that category! So stick around!

Beefy
08-16-2002, 07:19 AM
Long posts are good! They generally mean that the writer has something worth reading!

With me being an exception to the rule

zeradul
08-16-2002, 09:20 AM
nah- ;)

two5om
08-16-2002, 01:15 PM
Thanx zeradul

I think I will definitely be sticking around on the TT forums. Love the forums and all you guys seem to be good blokes aswell with useful idea's and knowledge.

ob7
08-16-2002, 01:17 PM
I'm kinda new to this so forgive for asking.

What if I have 3 60g hds, primary and the other 2 already has data in it, can I place them on the raid ide? Do I have to reformat? Can I use the onboard raid ide as a regular ide to connect the drives?

Thanks.

Beefy
08-16-2002, 01:33 PM
OK... firstly, the three drives will have to be formatted as a new single 'drive' when you create the RAID array. So you will lose all your data.

Secondly, Some RAID controllers do allow you to use IDE devices by themselves, where as some don't. Most of them restrict usage to hard drives only though, so you can't run a CD-ROM or anything on it.

ob7
08-16-2002, 01:43 PM
Thanks. I have an ata 100 card that I could use to connect my cdr and dvd. I just want to take advantage of the ata 133.

zeradul
08-17-2002, 12:09 AM
If you want to know about the futility of ATA133, go look at this thread:

http://forums.tweaktown.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4067