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View Full Version : should I replace my G4 fan? (Warning: Gone Feral)



Malabooboo
01-22-2003, 05:08 AM
I've got an MSI G4 Ti4200 and I'm thinking about putting some extra cooling on it for better OC'ing.

The GPU HSF on it is pretty good--would it be worth it to replace it with a heavier duty HSF? If so, any suggestions?

Thanks!

Fallen deity
01-22-2003, 05:09 AM
You can never have too much cooling..Especially since the video card is one of the hottest things in your system.

Malabooboo
01-22-2003, 05:13 AM
what about this thermaltake one? anything better?

http://www.thermaltake.com/products/chipset/g4.htm

Wiggo
01-22-2003, 05:19 AM
That's a good replacement for a lot of standard HSF's. :thumb:

:beer: :beer: :beer:

Malabooboo
01-22-2003, 05:25 AM
is it loud? the last thermaltake thing I bought was a smart case fan, and man, I don't think my wife will tolerate another loud fan... :no:

Wiggo
01-22-2003, 05:51 AM
No they certainly don't make that much racket and I don't blame ya wife there with that fan. :D
<center>:cheers:</center>

Fallen deity
01-22-2003, 06:02 AM
http://www.directron.com/zm80ahp.html

or

http://www.1coolpc.com/jag.htm

You'll need Arictic Alumina.

Malabooboo
01-25-2003, 12:54 AM
I think I'm gonna go with the thermaltake fan--anyone else here have it and can give me a mini-review?

Wiggo
01-25-2003, 12:56 AM
http://www.tweaktown.com/document.php?dType=review&dId=270 ;)

:beer: :beer: :beer:

Malabooboo
01-25-2003, 12:58 AM
heh, I guess I should check TWEAKTOWN first before posting dumb questions... :D

Wiggo
01-25-2003, 01:00 AM
No comment. :devil:

:beer: :beer: :beer:

ZeAliOuS
01-28-2003, 02:02 AM
I too have an MSI GF4 Ti4200
But i have no Heat sinks on the memory. Should I put heat sinks on both sides of the card or just one side, if just one side which side should i put it on for better cooling?
Thanks

Thomas
01-28-2003, 08:03 AM
both dude. Cooling ram on just one side is a waste of money:bounce:

Malabooboo
02-03-2003, 12:31 PM
ok, I changed the fan on my card--here are the pics:

comparison:

Malabooboo
02-03-2003, 12:33 PM
done!

ZeAliOuS
02-03-2003, 01:35 PM
If you noticed, when trying to oc this card there is a limit on the memory of 600 I think, if you know how to get past this please let me know how.

Cloud Strife
02-05-2003, 06:40 PM
The GPU HSF that you had on before looks like it was made out of white plastic, hehehh...

I wonder if that would fit on my GF4 MX440SE? I think it has the same hole positions, but I don't think that my card has any output for a fan (Since it just has one HUGE heatsink instead) But that can easily be solved with the right tools. ;)

Then I probably could go beyond the 330 OCing mark! :D

The only problem is.... Where do you buy these from? I've tried looking around for some sort of order form on their site, but me no find one. :(

Malabooboo
02-05-2003, 10:44 PM
no worries, it'll fit on your card--the kit came with an adapter from the 3-pin to the regular 12 volt (the main psu connections)

they are sold at a lot of places online--ppl here can probably make recommendations, but here are a few popular onlnie places (for US buyers) I've found it at:

directron
http://www.directron.com/a1449.html

newegg
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?submit=manufactory&catalog=129&manufactory=1379&DEPA=1&sortby=14&order=1

coolerguys:
http://www.coolerguys.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=001&Product_Code=840556018186&Category_Code=CPC-ChP

yeah, the old stock fan was chromed aluminum, but it sure does look like plastic! the all copper thermaltake hsf is great, but I can't really say the same for the ramsinks that it comes with. they seemed to be the wrong size, so I cut them up, which made the fins run the way I wanted them to.

vip_seng
02-05-2003, 11:47 PM
i'm using the Same MSI 128MB TI4200.
Why when i overclock the core memory above 285.it's lack when i playing 3DMARK2001SE.

Is that mean too hot 4 my Card?
sometime,i saw my VGA card fan stop spinning?is that's fine?

HELP ME PLZ!!!!!:argue: :argue: :argue:

Cloud Strife
02-06-2003, 12:08 AM
Usually it's normal to see the fan stop spinning when the computer's off, but if it's on and it just stops, check that the connections on the fan are in properly, and move the fan yourself around just to see that you haven't gone and melted your fan because you OCed it too much (Because of the heat it makes, it can melt the plastic in the fan).

If it is messed up, then I suggest you get a quality GPU HSF, like the Tt Copper G4 GPU HSF, Tt is a good make! :thumb:

Malabooboo
02-06-2003, 12:22 AM
yeah, any fan stopping while the computer is on is not good. : peace2:

ZeAliOuS
02-06-2003, 03:16 AM
how did you cut the heat sinks?

Cloud Strife
02-06-2003, 03:39 AM
You don't cut them off, you take them off by little clips.

Malabooboo
02-06-2003, 03:41 AM
i cut the ramsinks (not the gpu heatsink) with a band saw, but i'm pretty sure a jig saw would work I think

a dremel should cut through aluminum, right?

i cut them up because the way they came and the way I think they wanted you to put the ramsinks on, the fins weren't facing the way I wanted them to.

compare the attached picture to the ones of mine above:

i prefer the fins to point towards the hsf so the air can pass through the fins instead of hit a wall and not get to the rest of the ramsink

Cloud Strife
02-06-2003, 03:43 AM
Ohh right, so that's what he was on about, I thought it was a little strange, heh..

Wiggo
02-06-2003, 03:45 AM
Just use a cheap hacksaw as that will do the job. ;)

Power tools arn't needed for everything. :D

:beer: :beer: :beer:

Malabooboo
02-06-2003, 03:47 AM
i actually would like to get better ramsinks--whenever i feel them, they're pretty hot--i didn't know ram generated that much heat! copper ramsinks are pretty expensive thought--do you guys know of anyone who has made their own?

Cloud Strife
02-06-2003, 03:47 AM
I prefer to do it without any tools, and bite it; if you keep chewing on it, something's bound to break. :D

Rack1600
02-06-2003, 08:17 PM
Yeah, I just chopped up an old aluminium HS off an old (and ded) K6 that was lying around and used a bit of super glue and Arctic Silver3 (just AS3 on the middle and two spots of glue on each end) for the ram. Want to put my old Globalwin heatsink on the GPU, but might be too heavy (?). I have the same MSI GF4 Ti4200, and it is not very OC friendly with the stock HS and no Ramsinks. Might as well just fork out the £10 and buy one of those TT thingos. Ramsinks won't look as ghetto either.

I have seen a ghetto mod using pennies (older ones are nearly pure copper) layered together with thermal adhesive as Ramsinks. Must weigh a ton as well though...

The__tweaker
02-06-2003, 09:25 PM
The weight on my Ti4600 is about 500 g and i have not seen any troubles with it yet. As long as you are aware of the weight when you start moving around the pc.

:cheers:

Malabooboo
02-06-2003, 09:37 PM
hey might as well get one--it's only 12.99 USD

The__tweaker
02-06-2003, 10:00 PM
Yeah i got one of those thermaltake copper coolers for the
gf4 Ti series of cards, but i don't need it though, haven't even
unpacked it... I mounted the Zalman passive solution instead wich is great and of course 100% silent. :)

I have oc the gpu to 317 Mhz before it went unstable,
so i think it's a extremely good cooler due to the fact that it doesn't need any fan... :thumb:

Review here:
http://www.overclockersclub.com/zalmanzm80a-hpreview.php

:cheers:

Rack1600
02-06-2003, 10:47 PM
Well, considering my last comment (and other threads) I thought I had better change my signiture...:devil win

Malabooboo
02-06-2003, 10:49 PM
i can't hear my Tt fan over my Volcano 7+ or my smart case fan 2, so it's noise isn't a big deal : peace2:

The__tweaker
02-06-2003, 11:59 PM
Great, sound isn't goint to be mutch of a issue here just as soon as we got the new apartment and i finally be able to get my own computer room where it's not going to be anything else other than the systems.

:cheers:

ZeAliOuS
02-07-2003, 04:41 AM
ha thats gheto with the pennies! www.tweakmonster.com has all cooper ram sinks for older geforces and new gf4's (they are the revised ones) that from what I hear are verry good quality, and way better than the ones provided with the thermal take set, They are all cooper then they have a shiney silver finish. they are a bit pricey though (cheapest ive seen is $15 for a pack of 8).
Im trying to figure out how to get past the 600 limit on the memory speed for this msi video card. Its like the gf4ti4200 128mb are designed with the least amount of overclock ablity. Even the 64mb versions are faster. Im trying to get into the 700's on memory but it wont let me through coolbits, is there any other way to get passed this limit?

Rack1600
02-07-2003, 08:53 PM
I ordered a TT Copper CGA cooler, only because it is £20 cheaper
than the Zalman. However if it is on all the ram as well it may be cheaper than buyer additional Copper Ramsinks as well.:confused:

The__tweaker
02-08-2003, 01:30 AM
Zalman doe's not provide any memory sinks.
But since i don't oc it's not that important to me.

:cheers:

Malabooboo
02-08-2003, 01:33 AM
hey does oc'ing kill the life of video cards?

ZeAliOuS
02-11-2003, 10:42 AM
Well I bought the TT HS/FAN and I %$#*ED up my video card. Just wondefull, IM using a damn PCI gf2mx right now, I dont know how I messed the thing up, I was haveing problems with the fan connector which BTW is really odd because even though we have the same video card urs is a 3 pin, and mine is a 2pin, then I had problems with the push pins, but I got past that. I put it back in and I get square blotches all over the place, Then it gets worse and you cant make anything out, is it truely broken, or is it fixable? Ive tried everything, taken it out and put it back in like 5 times just inspecting the card, I even reinstalled the drivers twice, I am in tears, Somebody PLEASE HELP ME!!!! If my card is broken, could I still get a new one on warranty? How could I get away with buying the same card again and just switching the broken one for the new one, take it back and get money back?

The__tweaker
02-11-2003, 11:22 AM
Sorry, after a coolingfan switch like that your warranty is gone...

:(

Malabooboo
02-11-2003, 01:04 PM
if you put the original back on, would MSI know the difference?

negomike
02-11-2003, 05:41 PM
if you put the original back on, would MSI know the difference?
<CENTER><p>
First, incase any MSI employees are reading this…

We are horrified :eek:nd appalled(SP?) that a member of this forum would even suggest:mad: such an outrageous :hmph:nd nefarious :no:buse of warranty. A letter will been sent to notify someone to send an e-mail to someone else, about something.

Now with this assurance, please leave.
:D
</p></CENTER>
Now that that formality has been taken care of...

I think you can replace the original as long as you minimize any physical/visual evidence that it was tampered with.

I.e. try and use a thermal compound/product that looks similar to what you discovered when you removed the original HSF. Also, if you added the RAM sinks, remove them (Though that can be tough, ask others here how to do that) and clean them.

If it doesn’t look like it has been tampered with, then I don’t believe there is anyway for them to know what happened.

Also, important is how long you have had the card; if it is new you are most likely set.

If you have had the card for awhile, you need to go the, “I turned it on and it was broke.”
Here you must walk a careful line, you must appear to be sufficient knowledge that there is no chance that you made a mistake while installing it. (I hate it when I dip my video card, instead of my doughnut, in my coffee.)

:angel:
Yet, you have no knowledge of and would never *ever* even consider overclocking your modifying your card. Do not mention any mods or OC’s you computer has, you have a plain vanilla system as far as MSI is concerned. All on the up and up.
:angel:

:angryfire Also, being a bit outrage confused frustrated helps. You just had you expensive video card suddenly die for no reason, interrupting you work and valuable time. You bought a MSI card because you wanted the brand name assurance that something like a random failure wouldn’t happen to you.

Worst comes to worst, if its broke, and you send it in, and they don’t fix it, they’ll send you the broke card bag, I think, and your no worse off.

Just make sure you removed the sound activated light you attached to it.

Good luck.
:thumb:

I'm sure Wiggo will get a kick out of my sig.

dryadsoul
02-11-2003, 06:51 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by negomike
:angryfire Also, being a bit outrage confused frustrated helps. You just had you expensive video card suddenly die for no reason, interrupting you work and valuable time. You bought a MSI card because you wanted the brand name assurance that something like a random failure wouldn’t happen to you.

:D :thumb: Well beyond right you are there Nego;justifable indignation/outrage deslpayed when returning defective items
one has purchased in good faith, not only puts the salesclerk
on the defensive,but, if paid cash money as well it can even work
small miracles........such as getting you past a slightly over limit
warranty as well!!! And remember it's no sweat off their balls as
it is the manufacturer who ultimately takes it in the ass when
the customer indignantly but politely is adamant about rectification of situation and legal rights.
Case in point, having recently bought over $800.00 in pc componentsfrom PC Club, and when removing the TT passive HS from 1/2 Gb stick of corsair drr unit left me with two of it's chips stuck to the HS,returned to the store in complete outrage,but , with the product & not the celrks.........he says well O.K. but I need the serial#.....so I took HS from pocket flashed them and said "if you can read backwrds through paper, go for it dude..............Manger comes up and ask for receipt as it includes #.......warranty 3weeks past due.All i had done is reglue both chips and told him reason HS was removed was cuz ram only read as 128Mb.........he test and found same to be true & Bhamm .....New Corsair.........it's all in your approach and communication skills. Right Fu**ng on NEgomike.
best advice have heard that didn't come from either Mr.C,Mr.Tweak or Wiggo.

And ditto back at ya on that new sig
:eek: :crazy: : peace2:

dryadsoul
02-11-2003, 07:25 PM
If you noticed, when trying to oc this card there is a limit on the memory of 600 I think, if you know how to get past this please let me know how.

yo Z, if & when you recover that N'vidia card check out resources available in TT How to's and or DIY Guides here and tweakersasylum.com, Twistedmods.com, Tomshardware.com...
any tweaker and or OC site should get required results... in the meantime, I'll check my files and PM you with coolbit cheats for
registry which allow ya to seriously OC the N'vidia.I too have MSI
Gforce 4 Ti4200 64Mb, card clocked 325/615 and not only stable
pulls down far better 3DMark2002se score than everything but
9700 pro.........and it comes close even to that ati card.....and if your still just getting pixelated squares/gobledegook try reseting
bios with mobo jumper and than making sure the default in bios is set to agp.........if thats what card is......and once again remove
and re-install drivers for card.........go on net & get most current
drivers from Nvidia.com.........do cold boot.........and see where it
takes you..........have fun.....learn......and good luck!:( : peace2: :cheers:

ZeAliOuS
02-12-2003, 12:04 AM
This is what my friend is thinking about doing, not ME. somebody else!
my friend says"
Thanks a lot for your help, So what I gathered is that My card is definetly broke, I am an incompetent fool who should have never done this job, and that the best way to get a replacement would be to buy a brand new one from local store and replace it with the one thats broke take it back and be like WTF! I spent a ton of money on this card I want a new one, wait I dont even want MSI anymore, they are garbage, I just want my cash back. Only problem is makeing the card look like it did origionally and also the serial number on the card wont match the one that I bought.
Now as for the makeing the card look stock, I used artic silver on the fan and ram sinks thank god i didnot use those pads! So I should be able to just wipe of the artic silver and put some white thermal paste on the processor so it looks like it did origiinaly. But what about the serial #? Maybe they wont check? Thanks again.
-anonymous person"

Malabooboo
02-12-2003, 01:55 AM
my guess (don't hold me to this) is the store won't check that closely

but wait, why don't the serial numbers match?

negomike
02-12-2003, 02:00 AM
Right Fu**ng on NEgomike.
best advice have heard that didn't come from either Mr.C,Mr.Tweak or Wiggo.
And ditto back at ya on that new sig
:eek: :crazy: : peace2:

Dryadsoul you have truly made my day, I think that is one of the greatest compliments one could receive from a member of this forum. (***Line removed due to stupidity of content***)

I am just glad that one of my posts was helpful/useful. And again thank the holy triumvirate, who have been named, for answering all my dumb-dumb questions.

And I am being serious that I feel *very* complimented by that statement.



This is what my friend is thinking about doing, not ME. somebody else!
my friend says"

:cantfocus Wait, I thought this was a hypothetical question that was put to you by a friend about a hypothetical friend about a hypothetical situation. ;)



[B] I gathered is that My card is definitely broke

I don't know and I have little to no knowledge about these things. Hopefully someone else here could answer that.

I would suggest trying what Dryadsoul recommended, it sound good, but remember he knows more than I. Just whatever you do keep an eye and being able to return it to as close as possible to its original form.


[B]I am an incompetent fool who should have never done this job

I not an authority on this subject but I would say if you can get a mistake or possible mistake replaced at little or no cost then there is no such think as one being incompetent or foolish to attempt a mod. How else will one learn.


[B]that the best way to get a replacement would be to buy a brand new one from local store and replace it with the one that’s broke take it back and be like WTF!

If you are still covered by a store warranty or money-back guarantee use that.

If not, I think you have two choices.
Try the buy, switch, return trick. If they notice the serial numbers, you don't know what they mean nor how it happened, wtf, it's exactly how you got it from them!?!? Perhaps it was a birthday present?(for you or someone else)(<- will make more sense later)

Sometimes they check the serial numbers but I think many times they don't. I’m not sure. Also, if you can make it look like the package wasn't even opened your in an even better position.

Worst case scenario and they wont take the card back. Make sure you buy the second card from someplace that allows you to return the card, even if it is open, for any reason or even no reason. ;)

Then if the return doesn't work. Go back home, come back a little later like an hour or so. With the new card back in it original packaging.

Go to the sales clerk, and say that you friend/spouse/parent/pet looked at the card when you weren't there and switched it by mistake with another identical card that had been bought by someone else also as a present.

So apologize be very nice and sheepish, and ask for the return. The person who was getting the present will be getting the other card replaced by the other reseller.


[B]I used artic silver on the fan and ram sinks thank god i did not use those pads!

From what I have read those pads suck and should never be used. Just thinking about it, I've never met a pad that was good at conducting heat away from a surface.

You used artic silver on the ram sinks? How did you make the sinks stay on?

Also, just about anything, including pads can be cleaned off chips. At least that’s what I've read.


[B]So I should be able to just wipe of the artic silver and put some white thermal paste on the processor so it looks like it did originally.

Yup. :D
:cheers:

Malabooboo
02-12-2003, 02:04 AM
ummmm...i put those pads on...can they be taken off easily? use artic silver thermal adhesive, right? man, it's expensive for something I won't use much.

negomike
02-12-2003, 02:23 AM
ummmm...i put those pads on...can they be taken off easily? use artic silver thermal adhesive, right? man, it's expensive for something I won't use much.

Now remember, I am truly a newbie, I have yet to build my own comp.
So everything I say should be taken as a high sodium diet. Most of what I say is repeating stuff that other people wrote or my interpretation there of.

EDIT: though I have spent a bit of time inside assort comps and laptops so I;m not completely useless. Just mostly. ;D

But I read somewhere on how to do it. I think it was in a Zalman VPU H80a heat pipe cooler review somewhere. And the card they used, I think a GF4 Ti4200 128, came with thermal pads for the HSF. So they covered how to remove the.

I'm late so I can't track the article down now.

Got to be in the city by 3 and it's 2:15 and I haven't had a shower!:bounce:

I also read somewhere that it is a waste of time to put ram heat sinks on only one side of RAM that one should have it on both side. Anyone care to comment.

I think I read it here: http://www.envynews.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=11257#11257

Sorry no time to spell/grammar check. Please excuse.

ZeAliOuS
02-12-2003, 03:23 AM
Thanks NEGO and Malab. Hypotheticly, that is a great plan with the" Oh I was looking to get a replacment for my card but I changed my mind and decided on a albatron, I must have put the wrong card in the box, sorry" That is perfect, Hypotheticaly ofcourse. Yeah I myself dont understand how they ram sinks stay on with just that artic silver, I did it because I read that artic silver is way better than those pads, but they do move around a little bit, And I am confused about how much to use, I read that u should use as little as possible but how if you are trying to pervent imperfections in the surface. I am a newb to this hard core hardware modification Over clocking thing. I was a little rough with the card when i was trying to get that damn fan connector off. I didnt know videocards were THAT sensitive. But I have learned my lesson.
Malaboo you should definetly get some of the artic silver, from what I have been told its almost pointless to use those pads.

dryadsoul
02-12-2003, 08:12 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by negomike
[B]Dryadsoul you have truly made my day, I think that is one of the greatest compliments one could receive from a member of this forum. (Yes, I'm also kissing bum ;)

I am just glad that one of my posts was helpful/useful.

Just stating facts as i know them, and giving props when/wherever they're due; not suckin' ass as haven't got the time to whipe the shyte off my face. And Nego, check my join
date..........no more than 3 weeks ahead of you. Have been
building computers since 1980.....were talkin' Apple II e's &
yes, i still own one....lol..kid's under 2 love it.And although
i finnished highest in graduating class NWTech Inst.....i've learned
far more about computer technology from both hands on Doing
and the forums here & other Tweaker/OC sites.
When it comes to Knowledge, if one Doesn't Know than One Ask or One NEVER knows. Only fools fein pretense for fear of appearing stupid, which is in my estimation the Stupidest.
As attitude is lattitude.........if your minds in the ****ter guess what ya can expect from your life??? more shyte.......
:eek: gotta run as have two auto's,three guitars
and several pc's to heal before this day is my own.

negomike
02-12-2003, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by negomike
[B]Dryadsoul you have truly made my day, I think that is one of the greatest compliments one could receive from a member of this forum. (Yes, I'm also kissing bum)



Just stating facts as i know them, and giving props when/wherever they're due; not suckin' ass as haven't got the time to whipe the shyte off my face.

Please except my apologies dryadsoul, I just reread my post. I am very sorry and truly did not mean to say what I ended up posting.

To summerize what I wanted to say.
Being told that one is Mr.C, Mr.Tweak and/or Wiggo esc is a great compliment. However, I do not wish to seem to kiss up to them, it’s just how I feel.

I really didn't mean to insult you. Got my first compliment here from you and managed to insult you in return.

Thank you for the compliment and I am sorry.

dryadsoul
02-12-2003, 04:00 PM
[i]Originally posted by negomike [/
Thank you for the compliment and I am sorry.

Negomike; Stop right there as I am apparently the one with an appology to make.
Case in point:since first posting on this forum
i have been totally mis-Understood and or mis-represented not only by others,but, by the mis-interpratation of the facts which i
personally intended to, and thought i had, clearly stated. As a
direct result of said misunderstandings, i no longer use whatever
version of shorthand might make these communiques easier for most to wade through.........as many seek only instant gratification;and are unwilling/incapable of patience required to
reach an intelligent translation of words/phrases expressed here.

Having said that, know that i am anything But,and i stress BUT,
unwilling to communicate at any and or All levels of education/intellect....unfortuanately,being raised in Los Angeles
and having been gifted by the Gawds with an high I.Q...........
I do not tolerate stupidity/blatant ignorance well. I am the first to speak out against untruths/speak up for those being wronged...............this is one of my many human weakness's.
but ,as i choose to live by the virtues i hold sacred, my judgement is ruled by my values/morals.........which can become a hassle
when living soley by my Zero tolerance law.....when dealing with others of the same species.....I.E.:others humans.
So,please understand and in our future inter-relations, feel more than free to PM me if in doubt/question as to my intention/meaning.
For i have as much, if not more, respect for your opinion as you may have for mine. And the very first time,Ever, i posted here......
was also my virgin-first time- post on ANY Forum in existance.
And you were the first & only one to respond to said post.
So without further adou, i bid you and all, a long and healthy
correspondence on this.....my favorite/truley loved Forum.
Thanks to all concerned for your valued time/patience.
:crazy: : peace2: :cheers:
Sorry,but, this is as brief a statement as i am capable of making
on this issue.......Thanks once again......:crazy: :D

Wiggo
02-12-2003, 04:16 PM
Hey see? You guys can work these things out without me here. ;)

But really some of ya's need to study this page (http://forums.tweaktown.com/misc.php?action=bbcode#buttons) (I'll soon know who doesn't). :devil win
<center>:cheers:</center>

dryadsoul
02-12-2003, 04:25 PM
Please see post directly above!!!!!

Thanks Wiggo, just tryng to do that thing we are all attempting
to do............Communicate/be understood...........glad that is an
excepted behaviour here on TT...........else I'd have been long gone.............
by the way Wiggo do you have any Beer Brewing Recipes
that you'ld willingly share with those of us less fortunate beer
drinkers??????:beer: :beer: : peace2: :cheers:
More than willing to pay $$$ for righteous Stout recp.???:shoot2: :crazy:

Wiggo
02-12-2003, 04:57 PM
Sorry about the recipes but I use a pre-made lager wort here and just add dextrose and powered corn syrup to suit me (dry lager @ 6.2% alc/vol). :devil:

I have been known on the odd occassion to do a 9.2 though :devil win
<center>:cheers:</center>

negomike
02-12-2003, 05:33 PM
Dryadsoul you have no need to apologize for I too seem to have a talent for unintentionally inserting my foot into my mouth. Thanks again, for everything, especially understanding that the double negative in my apology was a mistake.

Forthwith, may I put forth that a mutual non-hostility pact with free trade stipulation that will allow the greater economic and political expansion of random babblings... and take up the holly cry of.. flatulence, crashaexperta, datainvalada...

Further more please feel free to PM and AIM me anytime. Your also going on the buddy lists. :D

Oh, also to let you know, I am switching over to a new tag. AIM: SmokeyThe Balrog and I’ll probably change it here too. Good by post count.

Oh, and concerning Apple comp.s in my parents basement they have a still functioning Apple IIgs. :D


Originally posted by Wiggo
But really some of ya's need to study this page (I'll soon know who doesn't).

Sigh… I've been busted by Wiggo… again… :D


-
Look I'm a programmer, I made a calculator in Visual Basic!
...?
It crashed

negomike
02-12-2003, 05:54 PM
Yeah I myself dont understand how they ram sinks stay on with just that artic silver, I did it because I read that artic silver is way better than those pads, but they do move around a little bit, And I am confused about how much to use, I read that u should use as little as possible but how if you are trying to pervent imperfections in the surface.
Malaboo you should definetly get some of the artic silver, from what I have been told its almost pointless to use those pads.

Actually, I believe thermal epoxy is the product to use when you need to stick a heatsink onto a chip with not attaching mechanism.

Arctic Silver Adhesive-( Premium Silver Thermal Epoxy, Silver-Based )here at Newegg (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=thermal+epoxy)

But note! I also understand that it is far more complex to use the epoxy. You have to combine two different compounds that come in two tubes, mix them together, then use as normal thermal paste, then you let it set. Also from what I've read it is possible though difficult to remove something that has been epoxyied on.

I have also read, I think also in that thread that I linked too, that they used Arctic Silver with two dabs of crazy glue at each end. Though I don't think that’s such a good idea. It might not hold the metal, and you would never be able to take off the RAMsinks. And I don't know if you glue could eat through the protective casing of the RAM.

Further if you are new to all this, the pads do work, but not very well. So you may want to stick with the pads, cause their easy, for the time being.


[B]Thanks NEGO and Malab. Hypotheticly, that is a great plan with the" Oh I was looking to get a replacment for my card but I changed my mind and decided on a albatron, I must have put the wrong card in the box, sorry" That is perfect, Hypotheticaly ofcourse.

I also realized that I forgot to write about option 2. Should the return not work, try sending the card to MSI. “I turned on my computer and I got a blank screen” type joby.


[B]I am a newb to this hard core hardware modification Over clocking thing. I was a little rough with the card when i was trying to get that damn fan connector off. I didnt know videocards were THAT sensitive. But I have learned my lesson.

Hey, at this point you have far more experience than me. I've just read a bit. ;)
Uh, just checking, was the fan connection soldered on or was it a socket?

What I would give not to post something and then notice all the mistakes, and then have it take ten tries before I save it and not notice anymore mistakes.

dryadsoul
02-12-2003, 05:56 PM
:o :crazy: 9.2% Yeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaa dat would
put kink in even a canucks tail........as they do 8.0%
it'ld work well if ya didn't plan on both drinkin' & walkin':confused:

dryadsoul
02-12-2003, 06:12 PM
Hey, Nego...uhh or is it Balrog now? Anywho, you don't
hapeen to be Italiano Do ya??????Que paaso????
One thing 'bout those sticky pads.......if ya build your own
system from a bare bones kit........Make Certain to remove them,
and not with a sharp knife,etc., and than clean the HS/proc with
a New/Clean 100% cotton cloth (or equivelant) before applying
thermal compound or you will create an air pocket/dead air tunnel around the core and surely fry the proc..........but, don't fell stupid
if ya haven't cuz i knows tons of supossedly qualified Techs
that continue to make that mistake at the owners expense.....
Oh, yeah,by the way just a tiny spot of Super glue (gel type)
will hold fine & can easily be removed without damage........done
it mucho times with utmost success rate.:D :crazy:

Now, where'd i put dat damn wine????

negomike
02-12-2003, 06:46 PM
Not Italian nope, but my family is Romanian, so close. :D

Now I gotta crash. Almost 7 am.
:cantfocus :zzz:

dryadsoul
02-12-2003, 06:58 PM
random babblings... and take up the holly cry of.. flatulence, crashaexperta, datainvalada...

:eek: Flatulence followed by "crashaexperta, datainvalada"
sounds like a strangely yet vaguely familiar mexican/italian
food staple that tends to be quite explosive when combined
with lethal amounts of sour mesh whiskey/beer........lol.....
Having been an expert captain o' the blue screen 'o Death
and inadvertant chauffer of data invalidation parking myself, is
one thing.........but, not while eating that volitale concoction:crazy:
:( :eek: : peace2:

ZeAliOuS
02-13-2003, 12:49 AM
Hey dryad, so ur saying that a spot of hot glue, on top of the thermal compound will hold the HS down without melting or causing damage? Well hypotheticaly I am going to buy a replacement card and use the HS/F that is on the new card and put it on my old card before I return it for my money back, because the HS/F that was on my old card has brown spots all over it and dust stuck in the channels, so this way with the new HS/F on the old card the old card will look like the new card, But the only problem is that I dont want to make the same mistake and damage the video card like I did last time, So what is the best way to disconnect the fan conector and push pins, without damageing the card? On the card I broke I was using a screwdriver in the botom area of the pinconnector wigling it back and forth, but when I was done you could easily see that It had been tampared with, how can I pervent this?

Malabooboo
02-13-2003, 01:21 AM
oooh...so that's how it broke! I had a lot of trouble pulling out my fan connector from the video card as well. In fact, I remember that I was scared as soon as I pulled it out that I broke the thing because I pulled so hard. I'd like to know if there's an easy way to take that out as well.

I can see how that would've broken your card--I'm surprised I didn't brake mine!

negomike
02-13-2003, 02:00 AM
but when I was done you could easily see that It had been tampared with, how can I pervent this?

That doesn't sound so good. If it is obviouse that the card has been tampered with your likely hood of returning it goes down.


[b]Hey dryad, so ur saying that a spot of hot glue, on top of the thermal compound will hold the HS down without melting or causing damage?

I believe it is a tiny spot of glue on the left, another tiny spot on the right and mostly arctic silver in the middle.

I *think* it should look like this.

* = crazy glue, gel type right?
o = actic silver

oooooooooo
* oooooooooooo *
oooooooooo

Dam-nagit, seems I can't get it to format correctly and Wiggo will shoot me if I put any html code again. Um, those three line should all be centered. Big glob in middle two small point on each side.

Sorry I still haven't gotten around to digging up those articles for you guys.

ZeAliOuS
02-13-2003, 04:10 AM
Exactly what type of glue? you mean that the glue goes on the side of the chip and not on the chip? Glueing it down to like the side of the chip/partly on the board? You really think that just a fan connector will mess up a video card?

negomike
02-13-2003, 08:30 AM
From reading what you have written so far, may I suggest that you ease up on the modding for a bit. Just go around and read articles about and how-to mod would be a good idea. Just by reading these articles you gain valuable knowledge. I have not modded a single part of any computer, yet. What I do know comes from reading about it.

Also, some of the questions you ask make me feel that you should not be doing the mods you are doing at the moment without doing quite a bit of reading up first. If you do continue, more power too you, but expect to loose more money and hardware. Either way you will learn and get better.

By reading and seeing pictures of what people do and what they mean, you will better understand how things should look/work.

About the fan connector, I simply meant that if it is obvious you messed with the card it will be harder to return. And I don’t think it is the fan connector that broke the card, more likely something got damaged during your handling of the card.

Here a couple of articles I have found about how to install a cooler. I believe desired thermal grease thickness is the same for CPU and VGA.

I don't keep track of these articles because the turnover rate of new things coming out and having slightly different installations is very quick. So I just read them as they are printed or asI come across them.

This on has a pict of thermal grease on a CPU to give you an idea of what it should look like here with a link to a how to build your computer site.

http://www.mysuperpc.com/computer_assembly/amd_processor_paste.jpg (http://www.mysuperpc.com/computer_assembly/pc_parts_list.shtml)

I just happened across this site, I don't indorse it or anything because I haven't read through it, just looking for some of the stuff you were talking about.

Here is Arctic Silver's (http://www.arcticsilver.com/instructions.htm) instruction page which also has some great pictures and has a great run through of how to apply their products.

Here are some great guides from www.Tomshardware.com
Reader How Tos: Building For Stability (http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20021102/index.html)

Building Your Own PC, Part 1 Know-How for Do-It-Yourselfers (http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20020904/index.html)

Building Your Own PC, Part 2: Assembly Step by Step (http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20020918/index.html)

Again, I strongly suggest you start regularly browsing tech sites. Use the links on the front page of www.tweaktown.com or use the TT link list (http://www.tweaktown.com/links.php). I think it will save you a lot of head/heart/and wallet ache.


------
I would like to thank you again, Wiggo and Mr. Tweak, for answering my questions, as I learn more, the more I smack my head.

Random qoute from some site (www.virtual-hideout.net) I visited today:
"My main objection to the suicide bombing I guess is how commercial it's gotten... Back in '88 a guy straps some explosives to his check and blew himself up... now you gotta make a video, pose for some 8x10's. Maybe I'm old school, but what ever happend to the suicide bomber who just did it for the love of the hate?" -Dennis Miller

dryadsoul
02-13-2003, 02:23 PM
Hey dryad, so ur saying that a spot of hot glue, on top of the thermal compound will hold the HS down without melting or causing damage? Well hypotheticaly

:no: :no: :no: No, i said Gel type Super glue & just a pin drop
on two opposing corners Never ontop of TC...O.K? OKAY!

And NEVER use HOT GLUE unless you are detirmined to ruin your intire investment in an upgradable PC System...... or unless your doing arts and crafts with your Grandma

As for Video card HSF unit/Push pins, turning the card over and Gently squeezing the split end of the pins together as you slowly push them through; when properly done, should solve taht dilemma.

And it wouldn't hurt for ya to take some advice from others here like NegoMike as he is doing what you seem not too.......using the
available resources here and elsewhere on the net for research.

As for HSF plug.......if you don't have/can't borrow a small pair of
adjustable jawed pliers (and by small 6-7 inch) then try Hemostats.........ya know what Doc's use for Brain surgery,and
pot heads use for roach clips.......and rock the plug GENTLY
form side to side while lifting up. And if ya want best HS for da money get the chrome plated copper ones with the high fins.
And whenever ya get the new card shoot me a PM & i'll walk you
through the Registry Cheats for Cool Bitz prog.....later gotz 'puters to heal: peace2: : peace2: :cheers:

Rack1600
02-13-2003, 02:49 PM
Just installed tha Thermaltake Cu VGA cooler - now overclocking to 300/600, haven't pushed further yet. Gave me 3000 more points in 3DMark, and nearly doubled my UT2003 framerate.
:flames: :flames: :flames:


Those 'push pins' are the plastic ones that hold down the HS, right? There is a bit that sticks up out of those on mine which is like a center shaft holding it down. If you pull that out the support goes out of the bit sticking through the board and they just pull out.

Tho not the same with the new cooler, so yours might not be like that in the first place... use small pliers to squeeze them on the opposite side from the HS, and push them through. Too easy with those springs on them. :knife:

You really need to be sure your fan is working and that the HS is on the GPU properly. It shouldn't matter how much/little AS3 you use (yes it will make a difference in how it performs, but not as to wether it actually works or not).

I wouldn't recommend using the fan connector on the board either. If the plan is to overclock, then your MB may not be able to supply enough power when the fan is on the GC as well.

And if you are ever handling your board, try not to touch the gold pins on the AGP connector - that could be what fried your board if you sent a static charge down the GPU core. It happens people, beleive me I work with this stuff.

And try to stay on topic you guys. Exchange phone numbers or something...



:hammer:

negomike
02-13-2003, 02:50 PM
This site www.rabidhardware.net (http://www.rabidhardware.net/index.php?section=humour) has some interesting takes on modding your computer with thorough walk through.

Follow them at your own risk. :D

The have a how to: lapping (http://www.rabidhardware.net/index.php?id=1)

and How to build a silent PC (http://www.rabidhardware.net/index.php?id=23)

P.S. Just to C.M.A. DO NOT FOLLOW THIS SITES INTRUCTIONS!
:p

negomike
02-13-2003, 03:36 PM
And try to stay on topic you guys.

We're supposed to stay on topic?!?! :confused:
Were is the fun in that?:cry:

dryadsoul
02-13-2003, 04:46 PM
Well, Excuse us but as this is a thread that was posted by
Malabooboo concerning changing his Gforce 4 fan, and all
post since seem to follow the problems some of us seem to be having in regards to same..........WE are on the frickin' topic.:crazy: :wave: : peace2:

Wiggo
02-13-2003, 04:52 PM
Yep, Malabooboo's call on this one as it is his thread after all. : peace2:

:beer: :beer: :beer:

Malabooboo
02-13-2003, 09:39 PM
hey, all's fair game now--I'm done with my Video card mod

I just hope this thread helps someone else looking to do the same thing

:angel:

...i've seen threads go off topic way more than this one :D

ZeAliOuS
02-13-2003, 09:39 PM
And it wouldn't hurt for ya to take some advice from others here like NegoMike as he is doing what you seem not too.......using the

Hmm I think you have confused me....
Why do you think that I am here? I do my research. But I guess that I didnt research well enough. I used the information from heatsinkdatabase for instructions on how to properly install a heat sink. I did it correctly, I just damaged the card some how in the handleing of it. Prob like what rack says. I have contacted MSI and am expecting a RMA number because there are no local retailer in my area that sell msi off the shelf. I talked to a retailer of MSI and he said that MSI usually wont inspect your card too closely so if I clean it up and put the old stuff on it, I should be getting a new card in about 2 weeks, if not they will just send the broke one back and Ill try my switch technique some other place.

I do apreciate your help and advice, but I feel like im being made fun of because I am a newb and im trying to learn as I go. When I was doing this project I had the mind set that I knew exactly what I was doing.

dryadsoul
02-14-2003, 06:21 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ZeAliOuS
[B]Hmm I think you have confused me....
Why do you think that I am here? I do my research. But I guess that I didnt research well enough.

Yo, Zealious, chill man, no need to get your back up.......we/i were not trying to have a laugh at your expense......i have no more than 2 months here at TT myself. And i can't speak for others, but, i believe most post questions here for a reality
check on their ideas, if they are dealing with fairly virgin topics/hands on experience in a specific category.

I too research inspite of/because of my 20+ years exp. "Knowledge is power" but no amount of reading can substitute for doing.........so's ya pay your money and takes your
chances; however the better prepared one is the fewer chances
one takes.

You seem to admit in the above quote that you may just have been too impatient.......lol......aren't we all at 1 time or another.

:D : peace2: :cheers:

negomike
02-14-2003, 07:28 AM
ZeAliOuS I did the same thing as you when I first joined this forum. I had been reading articles on and off for quite awhile and thought I had a pretty good handle on things. I have found that reading an article is very different from reading an article with the goal of talking about it or solving a problem.

Here are some suggestions that I think will make you forum experience more informative and more pleasant. First, I strongly suggest you begin spell checking your posts. In fact, I write just about all my posts in MS word. Proof reading is key! If you expect people to take time to give you answers then you must take time to write a clear concise question.

Reread your post once it’s posted! I regularly miss spelling/grammar mistakes, unintentional changes in meaning, or just plain confusing language. Imagine what would happen if I didn’t check my posts!?!?

Also, realize ***this stuff takes time*** the post I wrote you with the picture actually took me over three perhaps over four hours to research and write. It was done over two days. This post is taking over an hour.

In forums asking about information that is widely available on many different sites is generally considered bad form and upsets people. I know, cause I did that same thing in my first couple of posts.

Wiggo shot a little tiny bit of a spark in my general direction. I got a clue, got up off my lazy backend, and have spent and will continue to spend hours/days/weeks researching topics before I post a question about them. Most questions have been answered somewhere on the web. Use Google.com to search for topics if you can’t find any articles by browsing. (I’m just starting to do this)

From my personal experience of being a newbie, expect to be made fun of. Most of these guys have been here years and every couple of days or so, someone joins and asks questions whose answers are widely available. Further more, most soon disappear and if not they continue asking questions without first looking for answers.

My personal super secret technique to learning is that I usually start at tweaktown. Click the links for nvNews and Inquirer and begin following links from one story or article to another. Looking for things that interest me. You don’t have to religiously read everything on every site (though it helps). But if you want to know about how to apply thermal compounds you need to do more then look up your heat sink and read the instructions.

Read any article that talks about or reviews heats sinks, thermal issues, or basic guides. They will usually briefly discussing the process of attaching the heatsink. Those funny rabidhardware.com while they make fun of reviews they use the format that is generally used everywhere when evaluating a product. One can gain insight into reviews because these carry little or no real information. They also are great examples of, “just because you see something in a review you shouldn’t do it if it doesn’t make sense to you.”

In summery:

Asking how to install a heatsink is bad form.

Asking for a link to a guide on how to install a heat sink is still bad form but not quite as bad.

I’m not sure about asking about how one should go about finding articles about heatsinks.

The best choice is to wander from site to site and/or google search using different words. Then read about four, five, ten, or twenty articles about what you want to know or items related to what you want to know. Come to the forum and talk about it, ask about something you don’t understand, or ask if people agree or disagree with the information you found and your understanding.



Sorry about the length of this post, I can’t seem to shorten it anymore without compromising content.

negomike
02-14-2003, 07:34 AM
Dang! Dryadsoul not only beat me to it, he also covered everything in only three paragraphs.:knife:

dryadsoul
02-14-2003, 08:08 AM
Yeahh, and that's a plus for me...lol..as being sententious
just never seems to be in an Irishmans forte.......:crazy: : peace2:
especially when it took les than 5min. & i spell check after posting as review post button not always user freindly. But, have learned not to add smileys next to punctuation.

yo, Nego have ya checked your PM's lately? :confused:

dryadsoul
02-14-2003, 09:00 AM
Hey, Malabooboo, you out there?

Back on Topic.....lol.......if anyone is worried about
Electro Static Discharge on Video cards;

1.) DO Not hadle them by PCI/PGA connecting pins, and
don't set them on cellophaned wrapped box's.

2.)Never use magnetic tools/set them close to audio speakers....
same as monitors.

3.)Cover work area to be used with some kind of soft/safe
material:foam/sponge pads that come with mobo's......myself,
i use that rubbery webbed type shelf liner from 99cent store.

4.)Be carefull when removing fan header plug, as some of cards
caps are not re-solderable and must be super glued back on with
intense focus of detail.

5.)Have at least 1-2 extra vid cards on standby...lol.....too bypass
human stupidity/Bad luck factor.

6.)Save your sanity and pay worthwhile Tech to perform those
mods/upgrades your not sure of/comfortable with.

Suppose we should start New thread: Video Cards 101/?PC mods for those without a clue:crazy: :eek: :confused: : peace2:

Wiggo
02-14-2003, 09:33 AM
Suppose we should start New thread: Video Cards 101/?PC mods for those without a clue :crazy: :eek: :confused: : peace2: Damn we're gettin' far too many of them now so don't attrack anymore. :(
<center>:cheers:</center>

ZeAliOuS
02-14-2003, 11:20 AM
HEY?!?!
More crakin on the cluless ehh?
Alright Nego and Dyrad,
I get what you are saying, sorry if I sounded short tempered, its just that I have researched many other sites and stuff. I thought the point of this forum is for those who know what they are doing to help those with out a clue. Maybe one day I myself will be telling some nub the best way NOT to mess up their equipment.
In short, I apreciate the help.
Besides, there is no such thing as a stupid question anyway right?

Wiggo
02-14-2003, 11:28 AM
That's cool m8 it's just that this place is unlike any other forums around the world that I know of and most of us are certifiablely :crazy: 's but usually once a thread has reach a conclussion around here it either dies or goes off topic (choice usually up to the author). But if someone else wants to use the same thread then that's fine but we sometimes like to keep yourselves occupied while waitin' for the next question. :devil win
<center>:cheers:</center>

negomike
02-14-2003, 02:04 PM
[b]yo, Nego have ya checked your PM's lately? :confused:

Just checked PM thanks to your posts. Most greatly sorrows exceptional apologies forth sent. E-mail and pop-up notification for PMs is now on.


[i]Originally posted by ZeAliOuS"]
I thought the point of this forum is for those who know what they are doing to help those with out a clue.

I think what the point is that when people ask questions that have been answered all over the web is a waste of time for a knowledgeable person to answer those questions. Especially when there are people with questions whose answers are not readily available.
(Note that I do not consider myself a knowledgeable person on this subject)

Further more, it is nearly impossible for a forum member to write an as in-depth and thorough post as someone who has spent many days writing a multi-page article. So the information you’re getting is not even as good.

When you’re talking about basic “how to”s one should first look for information about how to do it. Then if you can't find any through either thorough browsing or thorough google searches. In that case then post something like,

I've been searching everywhere for information about x but have had no luck finding anything. Could someone pleased tell me how or where I might find information about x.

But it's best to have read anything you can find even related to the subject because it is blatantly obvious for people who know about this stuff when someone hasn't done much research. And it is also a bit unfair to ask others to do your work for you.

Edit: Dang it Wiggo! Ya need to wait for my first edit at least before you can make fun of me. :p
Hopefully this is now readable. :D

Wiggo
02-14-2003, 02:07 PM
has second read....third read.... :laugh:

:beer: :beer: :beer:

dryadsoul
02-14-2003, 02:11 PM
That's cool m8 it's just that this place is unlike any other forums around the world that sometimes like to keep ourselves occupied while waitin' for the next question. :devil win
<center>:cheers:</center>

Mr.Wiggo, my appology's for that prefix, but could you/would you consider calling this thread as case Frick'n closed.....or is that
once again Mr> Malabooboo's call:knife: :eek: :confused: :rolleyes2 :cheers: :cheers:

Wiggo
02-14-2003, 02:16 PM
Well I did edit the name of this thread several hours ago. :D

:beer: :beer: :beer:

dryadsoul
02-14-2003, 02:16 PM
Mr. Alious? whatever, sorry for your feelings seeming to be stepped on...........and congrats on choice of words, i.e.: crakin, as my true last name is McCracken.........no hard feelings i would hoppe..........:crazy: as Wiggo pointed out most here have
past/present history of being slightly,if not totally being :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :afro: :cheers:

dryadsoul
02-14-2003, 02:25 PM
Well I did edit the name of this thread several hours ago. :D

:beer: :beer: :beer:

inoWannabdrunkatm

been heisting few too many belated B-D shotz with out of town
Bro's from Chicago & L.A. as well as regular down under/downunder folks.........so.......good ta know ya changed da
TREAD.....intentionally misspelled..........name:hammer: :shoot2: :wave:

negomike
02-14-2003, 02:47 PM
Sanity is for the normal.

The normal are boring.

They're also easily replaceable.

:geek:

Malabooboo
02-14-2003, 03:00 PM
I now bestow ownership of this thread...

....to dryadsoul

:D

negomike
02-15-2003, 10:35 PM
What? :?: No post in 24 hours?

Hmm... guess this thread is :snip:

:wave: See you guys in the sequel

Should I replace my G5 fan?
(Warned: Going Feraller)

Wiggo
02-16-2003, 03:14 AM
What sequel is that? :?:

"How to remove such equipment for RMA purposes" ? :D

:beer: :beer: :beer:

dryadsoul
02-16-2003, 04:53 AM
Well now, while we're waiting on that prequel/sequel to be
released................i need a clue here Wiggo on Polaroid 820
digital cam parallel cord.....Question:can you direct me to
wiring schematic/stats so can build 1????:confused: :crazy:

Wiggo
02-16-2003, 04:57 AM
Not off hand but a Google should find that quickly enough if it exists though. ;)
<center>:cheers:</center>

dryadsoul
02-16-2003, 05:37 AM
well, many tanks & numerous other assualt vehicles to you
Wiggo...........But, Google ain't playin' well on that one.:confused:

ZeAliOuS
02-16-2003, 08:56 AM
do I sense hostility?

negomike
02-16-2003, 11:10 AM
do I sense hostility?

Hmmm... The force is strong in this one...

Wiggo
02-16-2003, 03:52 PM
ZeAliOuS[/size]]
do I sense hostility? No but here ya just gotta go with the flow as we are not ya common straight up and down type forums though if ya post like that I'm sure that someone will get their back up about it and become so but really the author of this thread is finished with it and your questions no longer run to topic now so if you wish a better result then you should start another on your particular circumstances as this is likely to attract ppl who didn't look in on this one and on that note this thread is now declared history. :D
<center>:cheers:</center>