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negomike
01-28-2003, 02:15 AM
Let the war begin.

:argue:

Just kidding.

Well, it seems that in its current state the FX is just an equal to the 9700. The drivers seem to be immature from the issues had.

FX seems like it was definitely rushed a bit.
I think there is hope for the FX since it seems to have high CPU utilization, I would figure thatís due to the drivers. Maybe they will be able to get another 10 to 20% (or hopefully more, out of it)

Yet, the 9700 can be silenced with a Zalman VGA cooler and the R350 is supposed to launch in March or so. Does that mean it will be available in March?

:angryfire And to all flamers out there. Please remember flaming simply wastes our time and if anything makes me more likely to decided against the flamers point of view.
:rolleyes2

That make me wonder if some flamers haven't figured this out and actually claim to support the company they hate in order to get people annoyed at it.
:cantfocus

Hmmm,
:bounce:

Edit:
Actually with the description of the FX, and it's heat being CPU level, I wonder if you could fit a Zalman flower cooler to it + some kind of support system to keep it from breaking the card.

Mr.Tweak
01-28-2003, 06:59 AM
All these reviews are based on a reference samples and early drivers, I am going to reserve my opinion until I get a hold of a retail sample.

ElvesBrew
01-28-2003, 07:16 AM
I have always prefered ATI signal quality over NVidia but was impressed with the frame rates of the GeForce GPU's. Now that ATI have beaten the GeForce in frame rate and even with the NX they are still on even ground I will have no reason to not stay with ATI and the Radeon GPU.

I have been a very satisfied All In Wonder Radeon owner (original 32MB DDR model) and now plan to place a 9700Pro in the gaming system I am building now. The only question is whether I will go with the plain Radeon 9700 Pro or with the All In Wonder version. I think I will go for broke, pun intended, and get the All In Wonder again. I have nothing but good things to say about my first All In Wonder and I would imagine the 9700 will make it another winner.

EB

Maxpowers
01-28-2003, 08:45 AM
well i have seen some reviews as Nvidia has sent out their testing sample cards. One thing about them is that they are extremly loud, also as many of the test show the FX is better then the 9700 but its not that much better, especially when u consider the price/noise/power, on another note the new FX can consume up to 75W of power so there is a connector in it like the 9700 which only consumes about 54W. Seems that preatty soon you will need 2 PSUs, one for your computer and the other for the videocard. I do think that the newer generation DX9 games with new drivers will beat the 9700 even more but how much its any ones guess :cheers:

Mr.Tweak
01-28-2003, 09:08 AM
Hehe, a lighter side to the whole story...

Mr.Tweak
01-28-2003, 09:09 AM
And another...

PersianImmortal
01-28-2003, 09:12 AM
Heheheh :)

I want to buy an FX for sure, if mainly for the fact that game developers make sure their software runs well on nvidia cards first and foremost (or release a patch ASAP if it doesn't).

However the vacuum-cleaner level of noise the FX samples are putting out - I listened to the audio sample which the Tom's Hardware review has - makes me wonder what to do. I just hope they reduce the noise to a reasonable level for the retail cards.

I run a closed-case system with no additional fans over stock and have a rock solid mild overclock, so there's no way I'm opening up my case and putting up with loud fan noise just for the FX.

I need to update my GF3 in the next month or so, so surprise us nvidia...please!

Mr.Tweak
01-28-2003, 09:23 AM
I downloaded the noise samples from AnandTech - when the GeForce FX kicked into full RPMs it sounded like an actual jet engine before take off.

I imagine 3rd party companies are already aware of this and busy perfecting their own, quieter, cooling systems - at least I hope.

I'll try and contact some of these companies and see what they have to say.

E^vol
01-28-2003, 09:25 AM
Hey Tweak...Can we get a "Waiting until there both out" option ? As in GFFX & R350.

Mr.Tweak
01-28-2003, 09:27 AM
Hey Tweak...Can we get a "Waiting until there both out" option ? As in GFFX & R350.

Done!

E^vol
01-28-2003, 09:29 AM
Thx bud !
Guess what I voted ?:laugh:

PersianImmortal
01-28-2003, 09:34 AM
I imagine 3rd party companies are already aware of this and busy perfecting their own, quieter, cooling systems - at least I hope.

I'll try and contact some of these companies and see what they have to say.

I think the retail version will be slightly less noisy, but just as Tom's Hardware says, it's hard to imagine it being much less noisy because the card puts out such heat that any cooling solution would involve a high RPM fan.

The noise is also more noticeable because the exhaust for the card comes out the back of the PC, so even a closed case system would be noisy.

What's worse is it has passive cooling on the back of the card, which means it'll be pumping out heat inside the case, so those with highly overclocked FSBs will notice additional - and perhaps too much - heat on other components especially the CPU.

Mr.Tweak
01-28-2003, 10:09 AM
Just talking to some folks "in the know" over ICQ, rumor has it nVidia were going to release the GeForce FX 5800 Ultra at 400 / 800, but then ATI came in with their R300 and put the presure back on nVidia to clock both core and memory higher so it actually remained competitive against ATI.

So this might explain the reason for delays, and of course the noisy beast.

Mr.Tweak
01-28-2003, 10:18 AM
A marketing rep from Gainward answered some of my questions over ICQ regarding the GeForce FX cooling system... (unedited)


Mr. Tweak: Do Gainward intend on using the reference (LOUD!) cooling system or produce your own quieter version?

Gainward: about that fan... seems like it is nVidea NV30's one of the fallback here

Gainward: everyone doesn't like to noise it makes

Mr. Tweak: so will Gainward produce their own, a modifed one which works better and quieter?

Gainward: I am not sure about the first launch product

Gainward: it is all come from nVidia's standard design

Gainward: so I believe as long as the VGA manufactures use nVidia's standard design card, will have the same problem for its first launch.

Mr. Tweak: I understand

Gainward: after that, we may have time to make some adjustment

Gainward: but, so far....everyone is the same....


Next on the hit list is Thermaltake to see what they have planned for the GeForce FX!

PersianImmortal
01-28-2003, 10:20 AM
Thanks for that info...doesn't look good :(

Looks like we'll all need headphones for gaming, just like nvidia suggested before...

Mr.Tweak
01-28-2003, 10:24 AM
Thanks for that info...doesn't look good :(

Looks like we'll all need headphones for gaming, just like nvidia suggested before...

Maybe, bye-bye surround sound gaming :wave: :no:

nutty
01-28-2003, 10:36 AM
Damm That sucks I was hoping that it would be released with a better cooling system.
looks like my vote has changed.
I hate noise :angryfire

Mr.Tweak
01-28-2003, 10:39 AM
In nVidia's defence, we all have to remember CG and how the GeForce FX is optimised for it.

Programmers haven't had a chance to release any CG enhanced games yet - remember Dawn? This was produced using CG.

So when CG shows its face a little more, the GeForce FX may prove a little better.

nutty
01-28-2003, 10:49 AM
Yep ATI have had months of driver development.
Im not giving up yet :)

Beefy
01-28-2003, 10:58 AM
When I first heard about the FX, I was thinking that it was going to blow the 9700 Pro out of the water, like the 9700 did to the GF4 before that... However, now that there are some pre-release benchmarks, I'm not so enthused anymore. Sure, it'll still be a great card, be the top performer, but not by much.

I'll probably change my opinion once the card is publicly released, and DirectX 9 support actually means something, but until then I'm looking forward to getting an AIW Radeon 9700 Pro... if / when that happens.

Wiggo
01-28-2003, 11:13 AM
I'll take either or both if someone wants to donate but a GF4 TI4200 is more than enough for me. :devil win
<center>:cheers:</center>

Maxpowers
01-28-2003, 11:30 AM
hey i got a question today i noticed thease "ATI-OEM (SAPPHIRE) RADEON" at my local pc store site can any one tell me what does the Sapphire mean?? i know its an OEM card but... sapphire what the hell is that supposed to be a stone version of the card? :rolleyes: thanks

Mr.Tweak
01-28-2003, 11:34 AM
"A clear hard variety of corundum used as a gemstone that is usually blue but may be any color except red."

negomike
01-28-2003, 12:09 PM
Hmmm...

I think I am choosing between waiting for Both or buy an 9500 and modding it to a 9700 and maybe then to a firegl
:crazy:
Seems pretty sweet.

If do-able I think a FireGL cost over a grand. Haven't looked it up or anything cause I'm a lazy [email protected]@.

However, being a newbie, I have never done a major electrical mod.

Dito with system software. So I don't know if I'll be able to pull it off.

This will be the first system I have ever built.

Maybe that should also be an option in the poll?
9500 mod into 9700 / FirceGL

I don't know. I'll leave it up to Mr. Tweak's discretion.

-
The FireGL costs exactly $749.00 at NewEgg.

I don't know if I want to put off building this computer for another 60 days. I've been putting this off for years. I almost pre-ordered the Prahelia.
:eek:

Mr.Tweak
01-28-2003, 04:53 PM
Here's another funny pic, this one from nV News... :laugh:

Mr.Tweak
01-28-2003, 05:20 PM
I think everyone should wait at least another month to see what third party companies come up with before making a judgment on the GeForce FX - don't loose sight of the fact that the 5 or 6 online reviews we have seen to date are of a reference design, and like always - third party go ahead and improve on it to compete with other companies doing the exact same thing. And not just performance-wise this time, cooling as is the clear case with the GeForce FX - and let me assure you, after talking to many third party companies today, they are all just as concerned with the noise related issues as you and I, and are all working hard to come up with more noise-tolerable solutions.

I tend to agree with the latest post made over at nV News by Typedef Enum saying that many websites hyped the NV30 so much (we are probably even guilty of it) that everyone was expecting the McLaren F1 of video cards, and obviously it did not happen and it seems the entire tech community is suddenly bitter towards nVidia for it. Let me lay it on the line for you all - nVidia had the lead over ATI and any other GPU maker on the market and have enjoyed much industry support for the past 4 or 5 years. Now watch ATI soak it all up for 2003 and possibly beyond, as they should, while nVidia sit back and scratch their heads for an answer. This is the key reason we've seen companies such as Gigabyte and Creative switch to ATI - they aren't stupid by any means, they know ATI and their future plans and goals. Hell, if anything it makes things better for as both companies compete to be king Ė letís just sit back and soak it up ourselves.

There comes a point in time where frames per second, are just that - simple frames per second. They've gotten so high now that there is no need seeing anything faster, at least in my opinion. Instead of looking for an outright speed king, why don't some of you folks enjoy more of the eye candy on offer and let the truly talented programmers of our world blow us away some more with unprecedented life-like detail instead of worrying about how high your 3DMark 2001 SE score is. Seriously guys, Dawn (the sexy nVidia elf chick) was just a start - wait till programmers and developers around the world make use of CG (ATI will also support it in their R350) and continue to perfect their art and we'll be back to seeing frame rates back in the 60-80 range, as told to us by nVidia - then and only then, will frames rates matter and come back into play like they've mattered so much over the past few years.

Frames per second are only those guys, so remember it. Why drive your car at such extreme speeds that you miss the beautiful scenery on the side of the road?

Beefy
01-28-2003, 06:14 PM
Nice post T. Basically the big version of what I said earlier. But I am gonna comment on some of the stuff you said.

The hype of a new card, no matter who the publisher, is always going to be huge. It happened with the Radeons, it happened with the whole GeForce range, it even happened with the Parhelia. People expect that new cards will give them something great and new, not just a re-hash of an existing product. That's why the companies provide demonstrations of what their product can do, way before they are released. Unfortunately, not many can live up to that hype. Everyone expected the FX to be a clear winner in the video card field, and were very disappointed when the facts and figures came out showing it's performance / problems.

Sure, there is a lot in store in the future for the card, with all the features that people don't really pay attention to, but the initial impression will always be the most important. People want to see what the card can do for them now, not what it could possibly do for them 12 months into the future. Due to the huge turn-over rate of current hardware, people need results now. No point buying a card that performs about the same as current stock, and has some nice features that will be supported sometime down the track. By that time, the new Radeon will be out, and possibly even the new nVidia offering.

People look at frame rates as a simple way of comparing two different cards. Most of them don't care if it supports DX9.1, or has 400 vertex shaders, they simply wanna see the card in action and what it can do and, more importantly, if it is better than the competition. The 9700 Pro did a damn fine job of this over the GF4, but the FX just peeks it's nose in front of the Radeon, which people didn't expect. The media promised us a miracle, and we only got a little dribble.

You basically boil your point down to FPS vs quality, but it should be FPS + Quality = great gaming. People do want faster frames, but they also want ALL the great effects to be present. Hence AA + AF being present. Hence higher resolutions. This is what people want. Something that looks damn fine and can keep up with the pace required frame-wise.

You drive a car at extreme speeds so you can see MORE great scenery. It may flash by in an instant, but you'll get many more of these great instants to remember....

< /rant>

Wiggo
01-28-2003, 06:31 PM
I look at it this way. It was only late last year when I got my first DX8 capable video card but what software has need of it today? Not many at all so why should I jump again to a DX9 video card now or even next year? :?:
<center>:cheers:</center>

Mr.Tweak
01-28-2003, 06:33 PM
I guess companies should work harder with developers and programmers to have the games and applications ready before they launch their products...

Beefy
01-28-2003, 06:37 PM
I look at it this way. It was only late last year when I got my first DX8 capable video card but what software has need of it today? Not many at all so why should I jump again to a DX9 video card now or even next year? :?:
<center>:cheers:</center>

My point exactly.

Companies can't really work too well on a system that's not complete, and when it is complete then you need some time to trailblaze the system and figure out exactly what it can and can't do. That's what takes time. Also, in the gaming field especially, companies can't afford to make games tailored to the high end machines and hardware out there. They need to make this customisable, which takes away any chance of getting a top notch product out straight away.

Caminante
01-28-2003, 08:05 PM
Hi, iam a little sick of this ridiculous ATI's fans dissing and making fun of good old Nvidia over a reference card.:angryfire

I may not be a comp scientist or anything like that, i do however have commun sence, this drivers which were use on the reviews were still on its veta stage ,which means they are not fully optimized yet, contrary to ATI which has had months to polish theirs.

I'd only like to see how well the NvidiaFX performs against ATI 9700 pro on 3Dmark 2003, so both DX 9 cards fetures could be stressed to the max, only them i'd come to a conclusion but definably not over older games which FX by the way has came out as the winner in most of the cases.

The noicy fans is not even an issue, iam sure that Nvidia or its parners will come out with a better less noicy solution.

To be honest i don't want ATI nor Nvidia to go away, i love competition, but everyone seems to be forgetting about ATI's legal problems, if anything happends to ATI, Nvidia might just end up making drivers for Radeon users as well. :)

Gammit
01-28-2003, 08:34 PM
I had started to build my system with the GeForce 4 Ti4600, and then switched to a Radeon 9700 Pro when I found the price difference to be $35. Since then, I've been curious as to the performance of the GeForceFX. After seeing how the benchmarks compare, and hearing the noise, I think I'll sleep easier at night. I'm sure Nvidia will correct all issues in the future, but I don't feel like waiting... :devil:

TOXIC
01-28-2003, 09:10 PM
Im with Wilmot. When we went to AGDC last month and saw DAWN with our own eyes it really does show you what the FX is capable of. Lets forget about 400 Frames per second in Q3 for a bit and think about how realistic Doom 3 will look at 40FPS :)

Beefy
01-29-2003, 05:20 AM
I ask, when are we going to see Dawn-like effects in practical use though? Not in the next 6 months I doubt.

negomike
01-29-2003, 06:30 AM
Actually I have been avoiding ATI due to my worries of their drivers.

However, even if they got another 20% out of that card I just don't think I could handle the noise. I have to work on this thing all the time. And yes nVidia deserves making fun of because its solution isn't practical for most people. I am sure that they will fix it in months to come and that the drivers will become rock solid, but right now put that whole package together and it isn't very appealing.

The final bit of info is that it is possible to mod the $160 dollar 9500 into a $300 9700 and then further mod it into an $800 FireGL.

http://www.gzplanet.com/search.php?keyword=radeon

The draw back of course is that one could end up with a $160 bookmark. :eek:

Right now the 9700 seems more practical, the FX seems like it still has some muscle left to flex. And maybe by release time someone will be able to quite the cooler. But I doubt it, there just isn't enough time, to design a new cooler, fabricate it, build the cards, and ship them through shipping channels to arrive at during either early February, Mid February, or sometime in March. And as others have noted supposedly the R350 might launch around then too.

Yes the FX rocks. But not enough to justify neither the noise, nor the hype put into it. nVidia did blatantly mislead customers to try and keep them away from ATI. That kinda pisses me off.

And no I am not a fan of either ATI or nVidia, I am a fan of best-bang-for-the-buck crop. :D

Well enough of my pontificating.
Of to play some UT on my 8 meg Radeon mobility chip.


P.S. Mr. Tweak, don't you think we need at least an "other" choice in the poll?

P.S.S As usually once I start talking it's hard for me to shut up. But, about the whole ATI insider-trading thing, who cares? This will not affect the company in any major way, except for maybe damaging the stock prices for a bit. Some big wigs get arrested, they are replaceable. Remember, big wigs plan for 3 to 4 years in the future and have little to do with the day-to-day stuff. Thatís for the vice-big wig to take care of.

Nor does this involve ATI corp.

Lone Wolfe
01-29-2003, 03:27 PM
personally i say get the saphire 9500 and soft mod to 9700 pro worked for me :D $150 into a $300+ card :-D by the way make sure if you do get one make sure you software mod with rivatuner soft9700 instead of actually removing the resistor.

But as for the benchmark i was suprised that there wasn't that much of difference between the 9700 and geforce fx (though nvidia had reference model and beta drivers) kinda reminded me of the 8500 (beta drivers when it came out ) losing to the geforce 3 ti500 too. As far as driver support they're pretty much the same now a days, nvidia has some faulty drivers and ati has some faulty drivers too just that ati has a bad rep for it thats all.

oh in case your wondering i use to own a geforce ti 500 just in case ya thought i was an ati fan, cuz im in the best bang for my bucks group like negomike

mondogenerator
01-29-2003, 06:38 PM
I agree with Beefy and Mr Tweak on this. I want to see cards that can help developers make the most out of there games visually. FPS isn't the be all and end all of gaming.

I don't think its a particularly fair comparison using benchmarks all the time when the software is not optimised to take advantage of the latest hardware and the programmers are only just realising the potential of what they have in front of them.

As for comments of Nvidia putting consumers of ATi, I think thats not particularly accurate. ATi put me of ATi. Does anyone remeber the Rage 128 chips. They were terrible.

What I would like to see is Matrox get on the band wagon, the Parhelia was a good card but I would like to see a pure gamers card from them. It could help to cause a price war.

Its all swings and roundabouts ain't it?

negomike
01-29-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by mondogenerator ]
I agree with Beefy and Mr Tweak on this. I want to see cards that can help developers make the most out of there games visually. FPS isn't the be all and end all of gaming.

I don't think its a particularly fair comparison using benchmarks all the time when the software is not optimised to take advantage of the latest hardware and the programmers are only just realising the potential of what they have in front of them.

I'm not sure if FPS still doesn't hold some merit. Such as comparing not only FSP but FPS when all the "eye candy" is turned on, and the quality of the picture.

Unfortunately FPS of current games and such are all we have to go on. They are far from perfect, but theyíre one of the few tools we have to get an idea of how much "head room" there is in a product.

I would like to find someplace that performs more benchmarks with professional 3D packages. Maya PLE is free for download and I think Lightwave also has a demo for download. I'm surprised they haven't become a standard benchmark.

As for comments of Nvidia putting consumers of ATi, I think thats not particularly accurate. ATi put me of ATi. Does anyone remeber the Rage 128 chips. They were terrible.

Sorry, could you rephrase that I'm afraid I think I'm missing your meaning.

What I would like to see is Matrox get on the band wagon, the Parhelia was a good card but I would like to see a pure gamers card from them. It could help to cause a price war.

YES PLEASE! I'd love to see Matrox get into it. I had high hopes for the Parhelia cause of all the hype. And none of it was Matrox's fault. Matrox seems like a nicer company to deal with than either ATI or nVidia. I wonder if a strategic alliance between Matrox and ATI would be a wonderful thing.

However, I don't hold my breath as far as Matrox re-entering the 3D performance arena. For now it seems that, like with CPU's, doesn't give much of a boost at first, I think it will be a year or more before Matrox can really have a hope of putting out something to compete on the level of 9700, FX, R350, R400, N35, N40, etc...

Finally, if I were considering the 9700 Pro for $300 and the FX for $400 I would perhaps still hesitate. For one, I believe it was in Anand's review, the FX had a 45% lead in Max. With that outlier compared to the rest of the data, there is still a question.

Hmm, I think it's pretty obvious that I have no clue as to where I stand, but the software mod 9500 to 9700 for $160 is by far the best deal in the near future. :D

:argue:

Does the 9500 get to = to a 9700 Pro? I thougt it "only" = 9700 non pro?

And the option of doing the physical mod.

Hmmm I wonder if nVidia will put out a dual FX board... oh &%#*@ started a new rumor.:devil win

2 vacuum cleaners for the price of 3!!!!

Cost is prohibitive as is FX chip availability.
I wonder if someone could photoshop a duel FX.

mondogenerator
01-29-2003, 11:36 PM
Sorry, should have been clearer on the Ati putting me off Ati.

Previous post and news articles seem to suggest the Nvidia bad mouths ATI.

This may be partly true but I actually have had problems previously with ATi. Primarlity the Rage Chips. There crap and and the driver support was useless.

For that, it gave them a bad rep and i'm still quite dubious about ATi.

I do see all the positive reactions to the 9700 as its a good card but In my eyes there still the underdog whos got lucky. Only time will tell.

hope that clears up what I didn't get across earlier but i'm at work so...:crazy:

Morgan_Lander
01-30-2003, 02:02 AM
The part about ATi having poor drivers is really moot. ATi has had some great drivers for over a year at least now. People that keep bring it up that ATi's drivers are in the pits need to put their money where there mouth is or shut up. That's what I did with an 8500LE. Still one helluva card these days (not the fastest obviously). I used to be very much against ATi, back when their drivers truly did suck, but that's been a few years ago. They've cleaned up their act. IMO, nVidia's partners had better have a good cooling solution that doesn't sound like a vacuum cleaner or they can expect some market share loss. I sure won't even consider a GFFX if all of them have a noise machine attached to them. I do expect to see the driver improve performance, but I'm more concerned about the cooling and the sound levels than I am the performance at this point.

negomike
01-30-2003, 07:52 AM
:no: One should always be concerned about performance. :angel:


:p

nutty
01-30-2003, 12:22 PM
I just saw this link
Not a bad read
http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/finger.pl?id=1&time=20030129210315

negomike
01-30-2003, 01:07 PM
Sa-Wee-ah-t!!!

:shoot: :shoot2:

:thumb:

negomike
01-30-2003, 01:38 PM
http://www.hardocp.com/
HardOCP has this up on their 6th Edition for Wednesday about their review here, http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NDIx.

The key parts of this are:

1. FPS were correct
2. IQ above 2xAA and QCAA where correct, just these two AA forms couldnít be captured correctly.
3. After rechecking they still feel that the 9700 has better IQ at all levels.
4. They are still pissed off and not satisfied with the FX

The post from HardOCP:

GeForceFX Follow-up:
Well, yesterday was certainly interesting as we were questioning our own IQ screenshots in our GFFX 5800 Ultra preview. We are still working on getting all the facts together, but we do have some initial thoughts on this issue.

First off and most important to many of you, is that our performance numbers are dead on, and show to be correct for every AA and AF setting shown utilized in our benchmarks (whew).

Second, it seems that our High Quality Image Quality comparison is correct as well as our IQ comparisons done at and above the 4XAA level.

Where we are sure they are wrong is solely on our 2XAA/QCAA screenshots and comparisons. Being that this will be a level that almost anyone purchasing the card would be using it is very important.

Going back yesterday and last night and doing in-game comparisons with the ATI 9700 Pro, it looks to us that NVIDIA's AA is still not up to par with the 9700 Pro's level of quality across the board, but certainly not as lacking as we pointed out at lower levels of AA.

Overall, we are still standing by our conclusions we drew from our initial results. The GeForceFX 5800 Ultra is loud, hot, expensive, and does not deliver the in-game image quality that the ATI 9700 Pro does. There is no doubt about the validity of that statement in my mind. This is not to say that GFFX is a bad product as it is marginally faster in many applications than the ATI flagship, but we all know that it all stopped being only about frames per second some time ago.

So to put it succinctly, NVIDIA gets a bit of credit for doing much better 2XAA than at first thought, but it surely does not change our opinion of the product. Now if we can just get NVIDIA to tell us exactly what is going on with their AA and why some forms of it seem to be done differently than others.

We are currently working on getting proper 2XAA images placed into our GFFX preview along with a reworking of the evaluation of those images.

SamuraiCatJB
01-30-2003, 09:18 PM
Well, as I mentioned in the Quadro vs FX, we have never had much luck speedwise with any other card other than nVidia. Since I don't play many games at home, and just do VR/CG research and "toying" with ideas for work, chances are I will get a GeforceFX or low end NV35 at home. At work I just placed my pre-order for the GeforceFX. So far no one has done more than cough at the QuadroFX prices. ;) I've talked a number of people into getting excited over the changes in the CG language for a variety of projects.... We do occasionally get ATI's in for other projects so I may see if I can "try" one to see if we still have the same problems with non-nVidia cards, but so far, through the 9500, all our machines run 25%-50% than any other cards (that includes the Wildcat III). My vote is for the FX, if only because I somehow seem to abuse any other card. Noise is not a problem in my environment... I think my rack-mount case-fans (6 of them) make more noise than the FX can.... but you never know. :) I will know in a few weeks.

rugbydude
01-30-2003, 10:43 PM
Many people have slagged off both ati and nvidia in this forum so all i can say is nyer i have an nvidia ge force 4 and i am gettin a 9500 pro soon so nyer:D
I'm thinkin of haveing both of them in my rig at the same time ooooh sounds sweet to me.
And i'm also gonna turn the 9500 into a 9700 with the software hack brill:king:

RDR
01-30-2003, 11:02 PM
Many people have slagged off both ati and nvidia in this forum so all i can say is nyer i have an nvidia ge force 4 and i am gettin a 9500 pro soon so nyer:D
I'm thinkin of haveing both of them in my rig at the same time ooooh sounds sweet to me.
And i'm also gonna turn the 9500 into a 9700 with the software hack brill:king:

9500pro can't be hacked into a 9700 - it doesn't have a 256bit memory bus

only a 9500 non-pro 128mb produced on a 9700 PCB can be hacked - I know both Sapphires and Powercolor will work - the 256bit memory bus must already be present

a 9500 non-pro 64MB can be hacked into a 9500Pro 64MB

the hack is only to open the 4 disabled pipelines in the 9500 chip - there's nothing you can do about the memory bus


in addition - I would estimate approx. 25-33% of people trying the hack experience a checkerboards pattern video corruption afterward - most likely due to the fact that the 4 pipelines that were originaly disabled either were never qualified or were known to be defective if the chip is a failed/bined 9500pro/9700 chip


in the worst case if the hack doesn't work for you - you are still left with the card you paid for - If you want a guaranteed 9700 card, the only way to be sure is to pay for one

negomike
01-30-2003, 11:54 PM
Further more, you have to make sure the 9500 has it's memory in an L shape like the 9700. 9500's that have memory in a straight line will NOT work.

RDR
01-31-2003, 12:12 AM
Further more, you have to make sure the 9500 has it's memory in an L shape like the 9700. 9500's that have memory in a straight line will NOT work.

...that's what I said, It must be a 128MB 9500 non pro produced on a 9700 PCB

negomike
01-31-2003, 06:55 AM
oopsy, my bad. Sorry.

PCD styles can be a bit much to remember, I just know to get the 9500 that has ram in an L shape. So if ATI suddenly released a 9500Pro and moved the RAM so it makes an L shape, I'll be SOL.:D

Remeber, for some of us (me) you have to think, :?:stupid:confused:

PersianImmortal
01-31-2003, 09:29 AM
Not sure if this is posted elsewhere in this forum, but here are John Carmack's thoughts (http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/24751) on the new graphics cards.

The upshot of it is that neither card seems a clear leader.

STILLLIFE
01-31-2003, 11:00 AM
I was looking forward to getting FX but now i dont know
for one im a big overclocker and there is not much room for that with a FX and two alot of people are talking how it underclocks itself do to hight temp's or hight MHZ im just gona wait for the r350 and for latter FX's with some updates to come out

FLaCo
01-31-2003, 11:29 AM
Ati, has done a great job...keeping their drivers sharp. My friend using the 9700 Pro...has had no problems yet. I own a 4600 and i loved it and still do. So i won;t be buying a card soon. I would love for the R350 to rock just to see the bad boys of V Cards head to head. I think the time for a new V card will be when i replace my mobo and cpu to the new AMD Processor and mobo hopefully coming in soon...that way i have a full power house...
so i voted "wait for both".

Beefy
01-31-2003, 11:56 AM
I'm still looking forward to getting that AIW 9700 Pro.. :)

rugbydude
01-31-2003, 05:49 PM
So you can't turn a 9500 pro into a 9700 but you can turn a standerd into one. I thought they were practically the same except the pro had the full 8 pipe line architecture when the standerd had 4?

RDR
01-31-2003, 09:36 PM
So you can't turn a 9500 pro into a 9700 but you can turn a standerd into one. I thought they were practically the same except the pro had the full 8 pipe line architecture when the standerd had 4?

9500pro's are always produced on a 9500pro PCB w/a 128bit mem bus

9500 non pro's may be produced on either a 9500pro PCB or a 9700 PCB

if you get a 128mb 9500 non pro produced on a 9700 PCB - the 256bit mem bus is already present and fully funtional - it just doesn't impact perfromance with only 4 pipelines active in the GPU

...but if you do the softmod to get the full 8 pipelines working - you have a functional 9700

additionally - if you have a 9500non pro 64mb on a 9700 PCB - or if you have a 9500 non pro 128MB/64MB on a 9500pro PCB....doing the softmod will get you a 9500pro

so only the 9500 non pro's are mod-able, what you get afterward depnds on the PCB and quantity of memory

I hope this makes sense

rugbydude
01-31-2003, 11:23 PM
aaaaaah yes that makes sense. But is it not possible for a 9500 pro to be made on a 9700 pcb? Well i'm looking into a connect 3d 9500 (pro or standerd) from the overclocking store and i'm not sure if the pro or the standerd is based on a 9700 pcb.
Well thanx for the info:cheers:

RDR
02-01-2003, 01:27 AM
aaaaaah yes that makes sense. But is it not possible for a 9500 pro to be made on a 9700 pcb? Well i'm looking into a connect 3d 9500 (pro or standerd) from the overclocking store and i'm not sure if the pro or the standerd is based on a 9700 pcb.
Well thanx for the info:cheers:

if a 9500pro 128mb was made on a 9700PCB - then it would already be a 9700

9500pro = 8 pipelines active
9700PCB = 256bit memory

I've never seen or heard of any 9500pro's being made with 9700PCB's - ATi probably won't allow it

on a 9500 np -the extra memory bandwidth doesn't affect performance since it is already limited by having only 4 active pipelines in the GPU - Obviously a 256bit mem bus would seriously affect the performance on an 8 pipeline 9500pro


also - if you plan on getting a 9500np 128mb and modding to a 9700 - there's no guarantee it will work

the extra 4 piplines on the GPU either haven't been tested or are known to be defective....I would estimate probably 25-33% of the modded 9500np's have some problems - some of the problems can be solved by improving cooling/increasing GPU core voltage/decreasing AGP to 4X/disabling fast writes & sideband addressing...but there's still no guarantee.

I've been doing a little research myself - a local vendor has Sapphire 9500 128mb's on 9700 PCB's for $150US & I may decide to give it a try

negomike
02-01-2003, 01:51 AM
bulletpc.com
is selling a Pre-modded 9500 to a 9700 pro for $200 with a 30 day warranty.

http://www.bulletpc.com/Qstore/p000293.htm

saidin
02-02-2003, 01:26 AM
I have the 9700Pro, but will probably buy a GeforceFX in the near future. Why? Nvidia's driver support in linux is 900 times better. I do not want to wait another couple of months for ATI to make minimal improvements to their drivers. ARGH!!! i love the card, just not the software. :mad:

rugbydude
02-02-2003, 11:18 PM
I have just read that the 9500 pro and standerd can't be overclocked.Anyone tried this and is it true?:cheers:

ReSpAwN DeMoN
02-02-2003, 11:34 PM
That is definitly not true as the 9500 is a detuned 9700. My friend has OCed his to 9700 status.

The_Replicator
02-03-2003, 02:39 AM
I have found a solution !!!

I just need to use the GeForce FX WITHOUT the cooler !!!! LOL

Turtle_X
02-03-2003, 09:00 PM
I have just read that the 9500 pro and standerd can't be overclocked.Anyone tried this and is it true?:cheers:

Yeah, dead wrong. I use the Riva tuner to bring in the missing pipelines to make it a 9700 on some of my builds. You can also flash the bios of the card itself to make it a 9700. Also, the 9700 overclocks well, and even though on the 0.15 process, my sources tell me that it is much quiter and far more efficient than th FX. The 9500 can be overclocked very well....I personally use Rage3d tweak to overclock mine---even after I have made it a 9700. On a Soyo Kt400 mobo I get 15186 in 3Dmark. How bout dat :)

RDR
02-03-2003, 10:03 PM
I have just read that the 9500 pro and standerd can't be overclocked.Anyone tried this and is it true?:cheers:

In some cases the 9500 pro is locked from the factory - but there are several modded bios available that allow OC'ing

I beleive the 9500np's don't need any tweaks to be Oc'd

RogerB
02-09-2003, 08:11 PM
Not used to posting in forums but here goes.

I have a GF4 Ti 4200 after upgrading, starting with a GF, GF2 MX, GF3 Ti200 up to the one I have now. Does anyone remember Voodoo? Of course you do!

Voodoo beat the hell out of everything and it may not have been the best being a pass through card etc, but we all had one.. Well I did at least. (2 in sli) Nvidia then trampled all over them.

I am not going to say that Nvidia are going to go the same way, but overall, it's price to performance that I look for. Who cares about the GF FX? Am i EVER going to be able to afford one? Should I even think about buying one? No.

I think Nvidia have made a mistake this time, not a big one, but a mistake nonetheless. I am sick to death of all the revisions, the 4200, the 4600, the 5800, the T1000! Dammit. The 8500Le, the 9500, the pro, the 7000, the 7000 pro. Geez........ I think we should have NO allegiance to ANY company as when Nvidia OR ATI go the remaining company will beat the crap out of us with Price. Look at AMD! Great chips, but if Intel go, the price will shoot up.

What am i saying? Who cares if we pick ATI or Nvidia! I look at the charts, imagine a price, and buy. After all, I wanna play Doom 3 at the nicest / fastest quality without saying sorry to the bank manager.

Athlon XP 2400+
756Mb PC2100 DDR
3 x Hard drives = 140Gb
Hercules Game T XP 7.1
Creative (Aghhh) Ti4200 64Mb
Crap case

negomike
02-10-2003, 12:40 AM
I nominate RogerB for the position of Newbie Prophet!:thumb: :hammer: :clap:


P.S. Should RogerB be voted into this position; I ask that he please answer the age- old question, "Are newbies allowed to use icons?"

The__tweaker
02-10-2003, 01:42 AM
Well of course, i want to play doom3 very fast with crazy fps
when it comes. But i seriousley doubt that is possible with my current pc. I want a faster nvidia card and faster cpu and more memory of course. Last thing is what's holding me back the most atm...

You get the speed you pay for, do i want a FX? I sure do...


:cheers:

dryadsoul
02-12-2003, 08:31 AM
Quote "Not use to posting in forums but here goes "
originally posted by BG

Amen to the NO allegaince clause and ya Voodoo was da one
as you could chain 2/more of their cards to not only increase but
double/triple/Quad-druple the performance........which in it self
is a far more finnacialy viable solutution these days:wave:

negomike
02-12-2003, 09:10 AM
drool....

Lone Wolfe
03-10-2003, 02:08 PM
Quote "Not use to posting in forums but here goes "
originally posted by BG

Amen to the NO allegaince clause and ya Voodoo was da one
as you could chain 2/more of their cards to not only increase but
double/triple/Quad-druple the performance........which in it self
is a far more finnacialy viable solutution these days:wave:

yep totally agree, hopefully we can chain up the other vid cards in the future.

SmokeyTheBalrog
03-11-2003, 01:35 AM
On that note, does anyone know any computer engineer I could talk too. I got some ideas concerning some stuff, and it would speed things up if I could ask a couple of questions to a comp. engineer.

ufuk21p
03-14-2003, 06:09 PM
i'll get a 9800 as soon as i can find the money to do so


:shoot3: :shoot: :eek:

SmokeyTheBalrog
03-15-2003, 03:00 AM
I'll get a 9800 Pro 256mb as soon as they're out... assuming something better doesn't appear out of no where.