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View Full Version : Do I need a cooling ujpgrade 4 my 9700Pro?



Ricky1810
03-06-2003, 02:06 AM
Welcom everyone :) As you can notice this is my first post:p

This is my question:

I just read in another thread about the cooling upgrades 4 the 9700 pro, and since I`m about to buy one, I want to know if these upgrades are optional or not...

Do I really NEED to get them too??
Will the 9700pro burn out without them???

Thanks!!!;)

rugbydude
03-06-2003, 02:25 AM
Your card will run fine as it is. You'll only need a cooling upgrade if you plan to overclock alot:thumb:

Ricky1810
03-06-2003, 02:37 AM
Thnks!!!!!!!!

....why would I want to overclock the best graphic card in the market???

Do I need it??

Ati would be the best choise for a manufacter card´builder??

Thnks, and Im sorry 4 all this stupid questions, it´s just that it´s a lot of money, and I want to be really sure before I spend it in this :-?

rugbydude
03-06-2003, 02:46 AM
No you don't need to overclock it but lots of people like to squeeze as much power out of their card as possible. you may want to overclock it in a few years:thumb:

Ricky1810
03-06-2003, 02:55 AM
Ok ok ok !!!!!!!

Now, for the final noob question of the day:o

I have a PSU 250w and this config.


1 X HD 30 7200 rpm
1 X CD Rom 52X
1 X CDRW 32x10x40
1 X GF2 mx 400 64m (not overclocked)
1 X 3 1/2`
mobo MSI Kt3 Ultra2
AMD 2000+ box (not overclocked)
LG 19`(but have it´s own power cable suply)

Do I need to upgrade my PSU when I get the 9700pro???

And should I go for the ATI 9700pro or look for another builder?????

...I really hate been so annoying
:(

Thnks 4 everything :)

rugbydude
03-06-2003, 03:00 AM
No worries bout all this mate. You might have to upgrade to a bigger power supply or you might not. I know people whove not been able to get a radeon 9700 working on a 350w p.s.u yet others with 250 work fine. So i can';t really help you there. as for which one to get try saphirre as they make very good quality boards:cheers:

RDR
03-06-2003, 03:48 AM
if you go for a 3rd party R9700 board...research the clock speeds very carefully before you buy - there are some weird combinations out there...I've heard of a Powercolour R9700Pro-lite?!? ...with 325/275 clocks & there are some other OEM boards with odd clock speeds as well
- it just doesn't seem right :rolleyes:

at least with "built-by-ATi" cards - you know what you're going to get

Ricky1810
03-06-2003, 05:28 AM
OK thnks, I´ll keep that in mind when I buy it.

Think I´ll stick with de ATI.... dunno yet:P

Tomac
03-11-2003, 08:44 PM
Check out this article on power supplies and the importance of the oft-neglected 12V rail: http://firingsquad.gamers.com/guides/power_supply/
To answer your other question while you don't need other cooling solutions for your 9700 unless you o/c, I installed the Zalman HP-80A passive cooling system on my 9700 to reduce noise and so I don't have to worry about frying my card if the cooling fan fails.
HTH...
Tomac

theyneverknew
03-12-2003, 05:07 AM
Ricky- I'd suggest waiting until the 9800 Pro is released (hopefully in just a few weeks :flames: ) before buying cuz then u could either get the 9800P or if u want a 9700P it will probly be a good deal cheaper :thumb:

Ricky1810
03-12-2003, 10:34 PM
Yes, I´ll wait for the 9800, to buy a 9700pro a lot cheaper. ;)

But, about the review of the PSUs.... It was very clear to me to understand, but after read it, went to see my PSU, and it´goes like this:

20a V3.3+
20a V5+
9a V12+

(it´s a codegen 250W)

I have the speedfan software installed, and the readings are:

4.5 V3.3+
7.5 V5+
12.43 V12+ (this one left me:eek: )

How can that be??????

PlLus, If the review is worthy of trust, then I´ll be in no trouble getting a 9700pro, since it doesn´t affect my V12+

Is all of this correct?????????

Tomac
03-12-2003, 10:58 PM
Ricky, the 9700 has its own power lead for a 12V connector from your PSU so it most definitely *will* affect the 12V output from your PSU. IMHO your current PSU is woefully insufficient for your current system much less after adding the 9700. You're probably pushing your current PSU to its limits, I'd seriously consider getting a decent PSU with a minimum of 16a-18a available on the 12V rail. HTH, keep us posted...
Tomac

Ricky1810
03-13-2003, 03:45 AM
:wow:

Ok, I see you point, but what ´bout what rugbydude said????


"""No worries bout all this mate. You might have to upgrade to a bigger power supply or you might not. I know people whove not been able to get a radeon 9700 working on a 350w p.s.u yet others with 250 work fine"""


In my ignorance, I have two opposite sides.... and dunno what to do...:tears:

I mean,... if I really HAVE TO buy it, then I´ll buy it. But if I can save the money, a lot better:p

Wiggo
03-13-2003, 03:55 AM
Ha! I've seen 400w PSU's brought low by that video card. :laugh:

rugbydude
03-13-2003, 03:59 AM
All i can say is that that card is one picky BIATCH http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/otn/violent/dark5.gif

Tomac
03-13-2003, 04:37 AM
:wow:

Ok, I see you point, but what ´bout what rugbydude said????


"""No worries bout all this mate. You might have to upgrade to a bigger power supply or you might not. I know people whove not been able to get a radeon 9700 working on a 350w p.s.u yet others with 250 work fine"""


In my ignorance, I have two opposite sides.... and dunno what to do...:tears:

I mean,... if I really HAVE TO buy it, then I´ll buy it. But if I can save the money, a lot better:p

From what I've read in other posts about people w/the 9700 the lower-wattage PSU's that work are quality units running near or at max load whereas cheap generic PSU's w/greater overall wattage are failing because there's insufficient amps available on the 12V rail.
I have a cheap ($35) 450W single fan PSU that appears to be stable w/my XP2700 & 9700 rig but it also lists 16a on the 12V rail. I now keep that cheap PSU as a backup for my new Antec 430W True Power PSU.
You can try running your 9700 w/your current PSU but you risk damaging your mobo & the PSU if your system tries to draw more power than the PSU can provide.
Tomac

Ricky1810
03-13-2003, 06:30 AM
Here, a friend who knows a lot of hardware and electronic is saying to me that a generic 300w psu whit the same "9 A on 12 v" is the same thing that having this 250W... is this true ? Must i get a really good PSU like enermax or antec ? Thanx !

E^vol
03-13-2003, 06:38 AM
I can't say if you need it or not. But, having a good PSU is never a bad thing. It would help to keep your system stable.
The question is whether you can afford to buy a new PSU :?:

theyneverknew
03-13-2003, 07:14 AM
Yeah when I first built my new rig over christmas I was using the crappy generic ps that came with my crappy generic case, unfortunately this meant that whenever i was gaming for more than an hour or 2 the comp would suddenly turn off :angryfire . Then I got a nice Antec 400W ps and it solved all of my problems :D :thumb: . Unfortunately it also cost me like $80 USD :cry: In the end its definitely worth the stability though, plus it will run more fans and lights :clap:

TOXIC
03-13-2003, 07:24 AM
Enermac PSUs are crap, they had a really good name about 18months - 24months ago but their quality has seriously dropped. The PSU of choice id defintly ANTEC some of those voltage rail are all over the place.

Dont skimp on the product that supplies ever component with power. I killed a proccesor and a motherboard with a Dodgy Aopen 300watt power supply.

RDR
03-13-2003, 09:04 PM
I won't buy another Antec....I had an Antec 510w on a dual Athlon sever...it lasted about 3 weeks. i replaced it with an NMB 480w powersupply - & it's been fine ever since. Even just to look at it the NMB was a heavier, better quality unit:thumb:

the Antec could barely handle the 4x73GB scsi's spinning up - even if I staggered them.

Ricky1810
03-13-2003, 10:40 PM
What is the worst thing that can happen????

Will my PC it turn off???

That´s not SO bad....

Will my mobo burn out like I read before??

Now, THAT´s something to worry about.


I wont put in danger my PC, so I want to know that.

RDR
03-13-2003, 10:52 PM
What is the worst thing that can happen????


As long as you aren't using SCSI drives - there's not too much that can happen (as far as permanent damage goes)

Unexplained instability & random restarts are common problems with underpowered systems

Tomac
03-13-2003, 10:54 PM
If your system attempts to draw more amps than the PSU can handle then you'll often see voltages drop as the PSU tries to provide the required amps. Running any electronic gear at decreased voltage can lead to damage, whether it's to the PSU or the mobo/cpu/etc.
Tomac
PS- No permanent damage? At the very least you risk burning out your PSU. Check out these articles:
http://www.tomshardware.com/column/20011012/index.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20021021/index.html
http://www.anandtech.com/guides/showdoc.html?i=1128

RDR
03-13-2003, 11:53 PM
PS- No permanent damage? At the very least you risk burning out your PSU.

yes - that's true - you very well could burn out your power supply - I didn't mention that. In most cases though, the risk to other hardware is minmal.

I'm not talking about trying to run a sever with a 165w ps - just the using a low/mid grade 300/350w ps vs. one of the top-of-the-line ps's like enermax in a typical gaming desktop

Ricky1810
03-14-2003, 03:55 AM
What da ****???

Somebody shoot me... :(

In the review of anandtech, says this:

"To AMD, the rating on the +5V and +3.3V rails is the most important because those are the voltages supplied to the motherboard and the CPU. The combined rating, as appears on AMD’s recommended power supply page indicates the sum of the +5V and +3.3V ratings on the power supplies listed. These two ratings, as well as their combined rating, are very important in choosing a power supply that will work well with your new Athlon system.

The remaining +12V power rail is extremely important if you’re going to have any high RPM disk drives in your new system since the +12V rail powers all of the hard disks in your system. Also, coolers such as Swiftech’s MC1000 cooler run off of the +12V rail and often times have heavy current demands which is another thing you need to take into account as you look for a power supply that can reliably power your system."


So, everything is opposite with the other review,where says that the CPU takes the 12V+ rail power.....



Witch one should I believe???????

I fell like walking in the dark here...

Tomac
03-14-2003, 04:31 AM
Check the date on the Anandtech article, it was written when systems drew most heavily on the 3.3V & 5V rails. Modern system components (cpu's, fans, HDs, video cards like the 9700) now draw most heavily on the 12V rail which is why cheaper/generic PSU's may fail: they provide plenty of power for older system specs but many times not enough over the 12V rail for newer systems.
Tomac

revenant
03-14-2003, 02:04 PM
I removed the GPU shim and put AS2 in place of the factory goop to help the cooling process. I get a stable and artifact free clock of 378 on this card now. I also just put tweakmoster ram sinks on the bga modules. Since I have 3.3ns Infineon modules, I knew they were running hot at default speed for this card, so feel better giving them a place to put all that heat. I got these sinks from www.crazypc.com along with the Arctic Silver thermal adhesive. They were very easy to install, and the adhesive congealed into a state where I could put the card back in my pc within 30 minutes. I finally hit 17K on 3Dmark 2001 thanks to my new "cool" setup. Here's a pic....

SmokeyTheBalrog
03-15-2003, 03:10 AM
How did you make sure that the ram sinks or the AC adhesive didn't short anything?

revenant
03-15-2003, 03:42 AM
I put the AC on very carefully, and any spill over I cleaned up with a Q-tip. It's like a puddy in it's "work" phase, so it was easy to make sure it did not ooze all over the place. I did have a little get on the board on the first chip I gooped up. I pulled away to fast and a string of AC formed between the application stick and the chip. It fell down across some scary looking areas, but I cleaned them up very quickly and have had no problems at all. Feew! It all worked out in the end. I can now clock my ram at 333 with complete stability and no artifacts. I would recommend using these with the Zalman (the new one should allow enough room to use them) so you cool all of the hot components down properly when OCing. I dunno, maybe it's just me, but, seeing bare "high performace" memory modules naked does not sit well with me anymore. I am a big fan (ha, no pun untended) of taking all of the necessary cooling precautions that I can, within reason. Cheers!

:cheers:

Tomac
03-15-2003, 04:00 AM
So you're fairly certain that the BGA ramsinks would fit under the Zalman HP-80A passive video cooler? If so that would be a good addition to my Zalman and should be something offered *with* the Zalman.
Tomac

revenant
03-15-2003, 04:09 AM
I know! I was very surprized that Zalman did not offer any ram sinks with that MONSTER GPU cooler of theirs. Sheesh! With all the metal they used, you'd think they could have spared a little for the memory. Oh well... I know the newest Zalman heat pipe cooler allows for tweakmonster ram sinks like mine to fit in, I have heard many people talk about them on Rage3D. Cheers!

RDR
03-17-2003, 10:04 PM
I removed the GPU shim and put AS2 in place of the factory goop to help the cooling process. I

I finally got around to doing this too...as it turns out the factory heatsink didn't even make contact with the GPU lug w/the shim in place - it was only the very thick layer of thermal goop allowing any heat transfer at all

It was a little scary getting that shim off - they sure did a good job glueing it on - & I made a tiny gouge in one corner of the chip, but i didn't affect it's operation.

the net result: max OC with the shim was 340...max OC now is 365 - still not the greatest, but better than before

I'm gonna look for a cheap copper CPU cooler I can mod to fit the Radeon - then I'll see what knid of OC I can get

revenant
03-18-2003, 05:23 AM
Hey RDR, will you let me know what you decide to go with for a new HSF combo on your GPU? I was thinking about getting the video cooling kit from sidewinder.com, but it appears to be for the GeForce4 only, and I don't like the TT Crystal Orb that much. So, I was looking at a big ol honk'n P4 HSF cooler at work today and started having such thoughts... Well, I'm sure I will post something if I decided to get crazy with these "thoughts" any time soon. Cheers!

RDR
03-18-2003, 05:33 AM
I've been seeing thermalright SK6's around for $11 or $12US - they were a top-of -the-line cooler a year or two ago - I think all it would take is a couple of drilled and taped holes in the base to be able to attach it to the Radeon PCB w/a couple of cap screw's...I think I could manage that.

I'm a little concerned about the weight of the cooler - but I think I might give it a try

revenant
03-18-2003, 07:36 AM
OMG!! I just took one of those off with my xp2100 and sold the lot to my roommate. DOH! It is a bit heavy, though, as you were wondering. It was heavier than it looked, I remembered thinking when I first got it. Maybe one of those old SLOT1 coolers, you know, the long jobs with the dual fans on them. That might also be interesting. I have one on my old Celery450 (300a). I think I will take a closer look at it tonight, plus go through all of my old junk that I've been saving for about 10 years now. I know I have some old K6 coolers around, they might work too. Who knows...

revenant
03-18-2003, 08:33 AM
I just opened up a machine here at work to examine a slot1 HSF. It's going to be too long to fit, unless you cut off one end of it. Then it would prolly work nicely. There's even a good spot to cut it where the fins are seperated from the middle group, to the end groups. Hmmm... and I have a grinder at home... Hmmm.... :)

RDR
03-18-2003, 09:42 PM
Actually I have a couple of AthlonXP Retail HSF's - they're not much to look at - but maybe I'll try them first - since they're free - plus they'd obviously weigh a lot less

now let me go find a bridgeport and a #4-40 hand tap :D

revenant
03-18-2003, 11:40 PM
Yeah! ...and some napalm!! ...wait, that's a different recipe.
:laugh:

revenant
03-20-2003, 03:11 AM
Hey RDR, check this thread over at Rage3D:

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33673085

Cheers!

RDR
03-20-2003, 04:06 AM
looks pretty good & 400MHz is a nice OC:thumb:

he's only got the HS attached w/epoxy though - I don't like that idea....I want to drill & tap a couple of holes in the back of the HS & use cap screws w/springs throught the existing holes in the 9700 PCB

I'm hoping to get an AthlonXP retail HS installed on mine this weekend...I don't have much free time through the week...it's my 5y/o daughter's birthday this Saturday though so I don't know If i'll get to it or not.

depending on what kind of results I get - I may decide to try a more "high performance" cooler later

revenant
03-20-2003, 12:47 PM
Yeah, I feel thermal adhesive is a last resort measure, also. OOoo, yeah, the kid factor does absorb a lot of time normally allocated for fun projects... Truth be known, I"d rather have a family than being so galactically single. *sigh* ok, back to the topic, I grabbed these two coolers from work and am getting ready to hack at them to make something for my GPU. They are big, but I have tools of mass destruction for that.
:devil:

RDR
03-21-2003, 07:37 PM
Okay Revenant - I stayed up late last night & worked on my project a little.
I added the AthlonXP heatsink to my R9700...I replaced the factory fan w/a thermaltake 60mm 31cfm fan I had laying around, it was a little noisey - so I added a thermaltake 3 speed fan controller too
the step in the HS base just nicely clears a resistor located a little too close to the core
...yes it does take up 3 PCI slots...but with onboard LAN and Sound - my PCI slots are pretty empty anyway

RDR
03-21-2003, 07:39 PM
you can see in this shot - it's apretty tight fit between the HS and a few of the capacitors - a 60x60 HS is probably the max. I can use w/o having to hack of the corners for clearance.

RDR
03-21-2003, 07:44 PM
No thermal epoxy here....I drilled and taped two holes in the back of the HS & used #4-40 cap screws w/ nylon washers & springs for even pressure on both sides of the HS, and of course a thin layer of Arctic Silver3 on the GPU lug :thumb:

RDR
03-21-2003, 07:44 PM
So far I've had it up to 378MHz...up from 364 w/ the stock cooler & 340 when the shim was in place...I might be able to squeeze out a bit more...I haven't increased the AGP voltage yet - but I think mine just isn't a great OC'er.....maybe a core voltage mod & a copper cooler is the next step:D
Still it got me over 5100 in 3DMark03...& I didn't have my CPU and RAm maxed out for the test either

revenant
03-22-2003, 06:45 AM
Sweeeeeet... :D :D :D

Very professional looking job, also. A gain of ~15mhz is pretty darn good. I am thinking mine should hit 400mhz with a "home made baddie" on the GPU. My ram is the 3.3ns infineon, so it's just not going to go any higher than 633 without getting artifacts. Oh well. Also, I don't think I'll be able to fit the two heat sinks in my photo on my card because of the capacitor clearance issue. I do have an old K6 cooler, which should fit the bill nicely. I'll still be eating 3 PCI slots, but I only really need my raid card and the Live! I am thinking about trying the nForce audio, but PCDJ (www.visiosonic.com) plays well with the Live! so I wanna keep using that until there is some native support for the nForce sound on it. Well, time to hit the beach for a BBQ. Awesome job RDR! *applause*
:thumb: :thumb: :cheers:

rugbydude
03-22-2003, 03:34 PM
Very good job there RDR:thumb: