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Thread: Help with CPU overclocking on z77 OC formula




  1. #31
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    Default Re: Help with CPU overclocking on z77 OC formula

    Quote Originally Posted by profJim View Post
    I'm currently reading page 9 of the Hard|Forum link at the bottom of my previous post.
    They're debating numerous thermal interface options and it's getting stale.
    It appears that the biggest hurdle is trying to mount a water block to the naked die without destroying the pcb.
    There is a promising link where there might be some good info at the end of the thread but I can't connect to it:
    3770k IHS Removals - CPU temp dropped from 79C to 71C
    I'm hoping that page 11 is the end of the thread, I'm getting bored.
    I wonder how the PCB without the IHS even survives the the CPU socket clamping mechanism. I've seen people with certain make 1155 CPU sockets getting dents on the edge of the IHS from the contact points of the clamping mechanism. Removing the IHS also removes a small but possibly significant amount of thickness where the clamp contacts the CPU, reducing the pressure between the CPU and socket contacts.

    I've read that naked die CPU users will place a shim or spacer around the die, providing some extra contact area for the heatsink contact surface. That also helps to prevent uneven pressure from the heatsink crunching the corners and edges of the die (cringe!)

    It's bad enough that we can't see the result of the TIM "fingerprint" on the IHS and heatsink under normal circumstances, but using a naked die and hoping we have even pressure on it... I know to much to be able to handle that psychologically.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Help with CPU overclocking on z77 OC formula

    Quote Originally Posted by parsec View Post
    I wonder how the PCB without the IHS even survives the the CPU socket clamping mechanism. I've seen people with certain make 1155 CPU sockets getting dents on the edge of the IHS from the contact points of the clamping mechanism. Removing the IHS also removes a small but possibly significant amount of thickness where the clamp contacts the CPU, reducing the pressure between the CPU and socket contacts.

    I've read that naked die CPU users will place a shim or spacer around the die, providing some extra contact area for the heatsink contact surface. That also helps to prevent uneven pressure from the heatsink crunching the corners and edges of the die (cringe!)

    It's bad enough that we can't see the result of the TIM "fingerprint" on the IHS and heatsink under normal circumstances, but using a naked die and hoping we have even pressure on it... I know to much to be able to handle that psychologically.
    With naked die, the retaining clip with the clamping mechanism has to be removed. The die does not protrude past the retaining clip. So unless your heatsink has taken this into consideration the clamp has got to go.
    It is pretty close, but if one where to add a shim in there to prevent PCB damage, that would be enough for the heat sink to not touch the die at all.

    Of course this is not an exact measurement. Just eyeballing it.

    Syn

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Help with CPU overclocking on z77 OC formula

    3770k IHS Removals - CPU temp dropped from 79C to 71C is a definite MUST READ. I'm currently on page 17 (out of 20) and I'm not bored!!

    I completely agree with parsec's concerns with running with the IHS removed.
    Common sense tells me that one important function of the IHS is to ensure that ALL of the pads on the bottom of the cpu's pcb are fully seated in the socket.

    Check out the posts on page 13 and page 14 of the thread, especially the information in post numbers 302, 304, 333 and 338.
    It looks like the IHS is purposely designed to have some vertical "give" to distribute the downward clamping force evenly across the bottom of the cpu.
    Last edited by profJim; 10-15-2012 at 10:37 PM. Reason: grammar
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  4. #34
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    Default Re: Help with CPU overclocking on z77 OC formula

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivi666an View Post
    All done! This is my post!
    Where did that come from? Who be you?

    But, good for you, finally done! About time! Nice post, that was a huge help, I'm book marking it for sure!

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Help with CPU overclocking on z77 OC formula

    I forgot that the clamping mechanism was removed... duh, I thought some of those pics looked odd. Actually, don't they lose the socket back plate too?

    Prof. Jim, thanks but we are simply not mad men! I haven't even scratched the surface of all the dangers this dissection... uhm, modification ensues.

    No offense synack, more power to you, as they used to say. But OMG, think of all the tolerances and clearances that are out the window when the clamping mechanism and IHS are gone. Then mounting a relatively large CPU water block on a bare die, with one shim being the only protection. Well, the water block better have mounting standoffs, but still... but still!!

    I just know what I would do, "... Ok, one more quarter turn of that screw... slowly... crack! NOOOOOOOO!!!"

    That is a great thread you posted, thanks! The need for "give" in the IHS makes perfect sense, but when I think about it, does that only apply to IB CPUs? If other CPUs have solder between the die and IHS, and any gap between them is filled in (I assume), what give could there be?

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Help with CPU overclocking on z77 OC formula

    Looking at the de-lidded IHS and cpu core, it looks like the crappy Intel TIM is filling a (relatively) deep area, thick enough to use a thin thermal pad layer instead of TIM. Due to manufacturing tolerances, most of all of the high end Seasonic power supplies have have a thick thermal pad under the pcb to help cool severval hot components on the underside of the pcb, where the psu case is the heatsink for those parts. Why did they do this with Ivy Bridge? Maybe it has something to do with the ivy bridge cpu tri gate technology. I think that it's time to do some research and see what the difference is in die sizes for Sandy Bridge, Ivy Bridge, and Sandy Bridge-E. Even if IB generates less heat overall, it's in a smaller, more compact package and this smaller package might be the root of the problem.

    just my 22nm.....err cents.....
    Last edited by profJim; 10-16-2012 at 05:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Help with CPU overclocking on z77 OC formula

    Quote Originally Posted by parsec View Post
    I forgot that the clamping mechanism was removed... duh, I thought some of those pics looked odd. Actually, don't they lose the socket back plate too?

    Prof. Jim, thanks but we are simply not mad men! I haven't even scratched the surface of all the dangers this dissection... uhm, modification ensues.

    No offense synack, more power to you, as they used to say. But OMG, think of all the tolerances and clearances that are out the window when the clamping mechanism and IHS are gone. Then mounting a relatively large CPU water block on a bare die, with one shim being the only protection. Well, the water block better have mounting standoffs, but still... but still!!

    I just know what I would do, "... Ok, one more quarter turn of that screw... slowly... crack! NOOOOOOOO!!!"

    That is a great thread you posted, thanks! The need for "give" in the IHS makes perfect sense, but when I think about it, does that only apply to IB CPUs? If other CPUs have solder between the die and IHS, and any gap between them is filled in (I assume), what give could there be?
    Which is why I put the IHS back on lol.

    Everything is still going strong. No hiccups, temps are steady (if not down one degree or two once the TIM settled in)
    I found and compiled up mprime for Linux. Wow now THAT is a torture test. lol. I'm still keeping at <80c on it running at 4700. I got up to 4800 fine, but it would get the very occasional glitch during mprime test runs.
    I'm happy with 4700 and the crazy cool temps. I can now stay around 28-30c doing my normal day to day stuff. To me that's incredible.
    I'm able to set my fans and water pump to their lowest settings and still run fine.
    However I do need to crank them up a bit when I'm gaming.

    I promise to get photo's up soon. Work and playing with my new toy is getting in the way hehe.

    Syn

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Help with CPU overclocking on z77 OC formula

    Prof. Jim, I had the same thought about the IB tri-gate design, I wonder if that die cannot withstand the flood of hot solder used in other CPUs. Frankly, I don't see how any CPU survives that treatment. Plus add no-lead solder whose melting point is over 400F... I can understand why TIM is used.

    Yes, the IB die is smaller than SB die, given similar processors, for four core CPUs, IB is smaller by 56 square mm. Check the list of die sizes here, scroll down the page:

    AnandTech - Dual Core/GT2 Ivy Bridge Die Measured: ~121mm^2

    I agree with your 22nm of silicon (HA!), the heat is more concentrated in a smaller area. Apparently those heat transfer pads are not as efficient as standard TIM. They also tend to use them more with macro-scale devices, like the voltage regulator transistors in power supplies, on NAND chips and SSD controllers, and in the large power transistors used in audio amplifiers.

    BTW, I love my Seasonic PS, built as you mentioned. The fan never runs, and I mean never runs, it may be broken for all I know! The PS case is a little bit warm, but hardly worth mentioning. I even put a tiny strip of paper over the vent outlet to see if it would flutter if the fan came on. It has never once moved.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Help with CPU overclocking on z77 OC formula

    No doubt, I was a bit surprised when I first heard they used solder to join the IHS.

    I get that they had to come up with a solution...
    I still think it's wrong of them to use crappy TIM when clearly the chip is heat sensitive.
    I haven't seen crappy TIM like that since the 90's lol.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Help with CPU overclocking on z77 OC formula

    Yes synack, it is an enigma.

    Just to ask, why do you say it is poor TIM? Believe it or not, the TIM used on the (shudder) stock Intel CPU coolers is some of the best there is. They used the best Shin Etsu (my personal choice) or a Dow Corning product with the same specs. So now Intel changed to something else for use in IB CPUs?

    Another (scary) thought just came to mind. The TIM in a IB CPU must last the lifetime of that device. Was the seal around the IHS that you removed a continuous seal, as in air tight? Although sloppy, it looks like it might be, or does the space under the IHS have a vent? Regardless, consider the longevity of an IB CPU using TIM. Will it be fine for three years of usage, or five? I wonder if the Xeon versions of IB CPUs are assembled in the same way. Are other CPUs built this way?

    I wonder if we'll be seeing issues with "old" IB CPUs, overheating due to deterioration of the TIM? How does Intel know it will last for many years? I have a PC with a Pentium D 945 CPU that was six years old this year, and still works fine, along with the original ECS board. Will I be saying that about my i5-3570K CPU in the future?

    OMGosh, I looked up my old '945, which is no longer supported by Intel, or is EOIS, or End Of Interactive Support. There was a note on the page that if you owned a Dell or Gateway PC, if you opened the case, you "may have" voided the warranty.

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