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Thread: Help with CPU overclocking on z77 OC formula




  1. #41
    synack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help with CPU overclocking on z77 OC formula

    Quote Originally Posted by parsec View Post
    Yes synack, it is an enigma.

    Just to ask, why do you say it is poor TIM? Believe it or not, the TIM used on the (shudder) stock Intel CPU coolers is some of the best there is. They used the best Shin Etsu (my personal choice) or a Dow Corning product with the same specs. So now Intel changed to something else for use in IB CPUs?

    Another (scary) thought just came to mind. The TIM in a IB CPU must last the lifetime of that device. Was the seal around the IHS that you removed a continuous seal, as in air tight? Although sloppy, it looks like it might be, or does the space under the IHS have a vent? Regardless, consider the longevity of an IB CPU using TIM. Will it be fine for three years of usage, or five? I wonder if the Xeon versions of IB CPUs are assembled in the same way. Are other CPUs built this way?

    I wonder if we'll be seeing issues with "old" IB CPUs, overheating due to deterioration of the TIM? How does Intel know it will last for many years? I have a PC with a Pentium D 945 CPU that was six years old this year, and still works fine, along with the original ECS board. Will I be saying that about my i5-3570K CPU in the future?

    OMGosh, I looked up my old '945, which is no longer supported by Intel, or is EOIS, or End Of Interactive Support. There was a note on the page that if you owned a Dell or Gateway PC, if you opened the case, you "may have" voided the warranty.
    The TIM is so dry it's like plaster of paris. I didn't wipe, I had to scrape the TIM off. It literally came off in chunks. The TIM looked "cracked" on removal, unfortunately like Schrodinger's cat there's no way for me to tell if the TIM was like that with the IHS on or if the act of removing it caused the cracking. In my books TIM cracking and flaking off is baaaaad.

    Also the results speak for themselves!
    before TIM replacement: temps were higher and varied wildly across the cores. 6C+
    after replacement: temps dropped to normal and are now within 1C across the cores.
    I used the Gelid OC extreme TIM that came with my mobo. it's considered "middle of the road" of the top TIMs. (it's not the best of the best)

    The black silicone they used to "seal" the IHS was not all the way around for me, and mine looked just like a few other pics out there. the "bottom" where the serial number is, is open.
    Due to the extreme heating and cooling, I expected a gap as we would not want the air inside to build up pressure.

    LOLz at the case thing. I worked in the service dept for a discount PC manufacturer a long time ago. They used to pull crap like that to hide substandard hardware lol. Not suggesting Dell or Gateway did... but it does make you wonder.

    Syn

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Help with CPU overclocking on z77 OC formula

    Ahh yes, Schrodinger's TIM, you don't know if it's working or not unless you remove the IHS... wait, yes we do, it's not working. That's a good one synack!

    I've also thought that TIM with the consistency of cookie dough was a bad thing. Then I noticed so many good TIMs are like that. I read an article about TIM, that said the problem with thin, wet or oily TIM, is that it gets squeezed out of the IHS - CPU cooler interface gap, officially called Pump Out. That is not just on the initial mounting of the CPU cooler, but over time, weeks and months later. Also, even oil and other semi-solvents evaporate over time, leaving TIM dust, officially called Bake Out, instead of what looks like old pizza cheese. So the cracked, clumpy, pizza cheese is actually better...

    I wonder if the higher temps the TIM on the CPU die is subjected to causes it to bake out faster. As you said, the IB IHS is not air tight, for good reason, which again contributes to bake out. Hmm, now what unusual TIM does not suffer from this (solder!!) I officially have a case of PC nerd nervosa over IB die TIM.

    Regarding the "do not open" PCs, I'd be afraid to look inside, to find all their weird, proprietary connectors, etc. Isn't it Dell that uses a non-standard fan header on their boards and fans? Sure, make me buy your goofy 80mm fans for $20, that you pay 50 cents for... "Dude, you've got a Hell PC!"

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Help with CPU overclocking on z77 OC formula

    I agree, Thick paste is a good thing.

    Pump out isn't always a bad thing however. really, all you want is enough to cover the tiny spaces between the two materials.
    In a perfect TIM world, all excess would be squeezed out, and only left with filling the gaps that would otherwise be occupied by air.
    This is how I perceive when TIM is "settling in." (cycles of hot and cold to induce movement which causes the gaps to be better filled, with the air and extra TIM squeezed out)

    I just don't know how else to reason the temp issue. my CPU temps were wonky from the day I installed this CPU until i replaced the TIM. The OEM TIM shouldn't have had a chance to dry out. Even still this PC is only a few weeks old. Should TIM be hard after 2.5 weeks?
    I know the stuff I put between the water block and IHS was still awesome (probably not even broken in yet lol) and it had about the same "running" life as the TIM under the IHS.

    LOL at the "Hell PC"
    I have to say though, in a corporate world, Dell PC's are aweeeesomer. Gold tech support from Dell is magical. Call up the "special phone number" give them the PC specifics, tell them what's wrong, 1-2 day parts shipping with a return paid box for the defective part, if they even want it back. (sometimes they don't if they cant salvage it and/or it's not worth the shipping cost)

    I should rename the subject to: "Schrodinger's TIM Approximation"

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Help with CPU overclocking on z77 OC formula

    As a contrast, in my other hobby, audiophile-mania, the way that large output transistors, the main ones in an amplifier, are interfaced to their heatsink is a little different. In the old days, they used mica "washers", which just look like thin clear plastic, which is needed to insulate the metal surface of the transistor from the heatsink, with TIM on both surfaces of the washers. I've mounted large power transistors like that, and the TIM is very thin and oily, at one time called silicone grease. Nothing like CPU TIM, literally a very light grease consistency. Now they use "sil-pads", a silicone impregnated, soft material cut to shape, like a thin piece of cloth, with no TIM, the pad is the TIM. You can buy sil-pads in sheets even, to custom cut, I often wonder how good they'd be on CPUs.

    IMO, the theory of what TIM is for, filling in very small imperfections in the two surfaces in contact with each other, and the reality, are very different. In theory, I think the layer of TIM we find between the IHS and heatsink, should be as thin as a piece of paper, or less, much less. In reality, it is much more than that. Would you agree?

    IMO, the reality is TIM is filling in relatively large gaps between the IHS and heatsink, mainly due to the non-flat nature of the IHS. Yes, we can lap the IHS (and void the warranty), but I will ignore that for this discussion. Next is the potential non-flat nature of the heat sink contact surface, usually not as bad as the IHS, but variable. Frankly, I'd say the (forgive me) stock Intel CPU cooler has a really flat surface, about the only good thing about it.

    Given all the potential variations and tolerances that can exist (and are worse with push-pin mounting), plus application error, the result is a TIM thickness (variable across the two surfaces) I would estimate to be 0.1 - 0.2mm thick. Ideally, wouldn't the TIM be nothing more than a hazy coating on the IHS, that allows you to read the text on the CPU? No more than that on the heatsink contact surface too?

    Of course we try to minimize the amount of TIM, using the "pea size" application method. We then worry it was to little. Or we check and see bare spots on the IHS or heatsink. Bare spots are likely caused most of the time by the non-flat surfaces, and other variations (pressure, or just poor mounting technique.)

    Sorry, just my TIM reality-opinion-rant

    I have no doubt you get great service from Dell in the enterprise environment, and in reality in most cases it is a good thing that opening the PC case is forbidden, due to the infamous, ubiquitous ID10T error factor.

  5. #45
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    Cool Re: Help with CPU overclocking on z77 OC formula

    From User error - Wikipedia
    User Error and related phrases such as PEBKAC ("Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair" and the complementary PEBCAK ("Problem Exists Between Chair and Keyboard")), PICNIC ("Problem In Chair Not In Computer"), PIBCAK ("Problem Is Between Chair And Keyboard") or ID-10T error ("Idiot error") are also used as slang in technical circles with similar potentially derogatory meaning. This usage implies a lack of computer savvy, asserting that problems arising when using a device are the fault of the user. Critics of the term argue that the problems are caused instead by a device designed in such a way that it induces errors.

    The term can also be used for non-computer-related mistakes.

    parsec, is this a bad time of the month for you?
    It's OK, we don't mind occasional rants.
    Funny but unrelated quote: "It's hard to soar with eagles when you work with turkeys."
    Last edited by profJim; 10-18-2012 at 04:44 PM. Reason: added quote
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  6. #46
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    Default Re: Help with CPU overclocking on z77 OC formula

    ... bad time of the month you say... If only I could inflict upon you the wrath a woman would if she was on the receiving end of that statement!

    The only one you forgot is the normal state of your own PC, FUBAR!

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