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Thread: z97 extreme 4 + I7 4790k= very bad defaults?




  1. #1
    Gdgiordano is offline Junior Member
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    Exclamation z97 extreme 4 + I7 4790k= very bad defaults?

    My i7 was doing 60 degrees sitting on the desktop. Turns out it is because the default bios settings are horrid. The default turbo power boost max is defaulted at 1000 amps instead of intels reccomended 88. Processor current limit set at 1000 amps instead of intels reccomended 105. There was other settings that were insanely off by default. ASrock please update the bios for proper values as your settings are 10 times too high according to Intel.
    After applying intels spec amps and voltages I got a more normal 23 degree avg on idle.
    before yall ask yes I am up to date with 1.30(came installed)
    Please fix this. This is a serious issue that a lot of people don't know how to fix.
    I don't mean to sound like I am flaming ASrock but how do you set 3 Critical numbers to over 10 times what they are supposed to be.
    Anybody else encountered this?

  2. #2
    SandsOfTime is offline Member
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    Default Re: z97 extreme 4 + I7 4790k= very bad defaults?

    Today ASRock released BIOS 1.50 for the Z97 Extreme4. Maybe this issues are fixed?

  3. #3
    parsec's Avatar
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    Default Re: z97 extreme 4 + I7 4790k= very bad defaults?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gdgiordano View Post
    My i7 was doing 60 degrees sitting on the desktop. Turns out it is because the default bios settings are horrid. The default turbo power boost max is defaulted at 1000 amps instead of intels reccomended 88. Processor current limit set at 1000 amps instead of intels reccomended 105. There was other settings that were insanely off by default. ASrock please update the bios for proper values as your settings are 10 times too high according to Intel.
    After applying intels spec amps and voltages I got a more normal 23 degree avg on idle.
    before yall ask yes I am up to date with 1.30(came installed)
    Please fix this. This is a serious issue that a lot of people don't know how to fix.
    I don't mean to sound like I am flaming ASrock but how do you set 3 Critical numbers to over 10 times what they are supposed to be.
    Anybody else encountered this?
    The Turbo boost power maximum and processor current limit settings you mentioned are standard settings in ASRock and other mother board's BIOS. I have left those setting untouched on my ASRock Z87 and Z97 boards, and my processors average idle temperatures are in the low 20's C.

    Both of those settings at the default values does not cause 1000A of current or 1000W of power to be applied to a processor unless:

    1. The processors VCore voltage is high enough to allow such currents and powers to be drawn.

    2. The processor is over clocked to a level that it will actually need that much power.

    3. The load on the processor is very high, 100% usage on all cores.

    Even with all three of these factors established, that still does not cause any where near 1000W or 1000A to be used. It is also impossible for a processor at idle to be using that kind of power.

    The Turbo Boost maximum is 1000W, and the Processor current limit is 1000A. That does not mean that is supplied to the processor at all times, or at any time. An AC power outlet in your home can provide 15A at 120V, or 1800W, but is it putting that much power into a wall wart power supply that is charging a cell phone?

    You could download and install Intel's Extreme Tuning Utility, run its stress test, and see the amount of power being used, among other things. This is what a little Pentium Anniversary G3258 at 4.2GHz looks like running an IXTU stress test:

    z97 extreme 4 + I7 4790k= very bad defaults?-ixtu-1-png

    You can see the Turbo Boost Maximum power is set to 1000W and the Processor Current Limit is 1000A, in the upper right side of the screen. At the bottom we can see the cores running a 4.2GHz, a total processor TDP of 41W, CPU temperature of 42C, CPU utilization of 100%. The rated TDP of the G3258 is 53W, vs 88W for your i7-4790K. The 1000W and 1000A limits would be even more crazy for a G3258 than an i7 processor, if that much power was actually delivered to it.

    Note that there is a time limit parameter for the Turbo Boost Power Time Window, of eight seconds.

    By reducing the current and power limits in your BIOS, nothing usually happens except under high processor load conditions, and then only if its power usage was beyond the 88W or 105A settings you're using. You'd then experience Current Limit or Power Limit throttling, the core speeds would be reduced to reduce power usage.

    Your i7's high idle temperature was caused by other settings in the BIOS that you changed, not these two settings. It seems like you're using a stock heat sink on a hot running Haswell processor.

    It's true that the 1000A max and 1000W limit settings are never reached by almost anyone, and simply look impressive. Increasing or reducing them does nothing to a processor unless they are set so low they induce current or power throttling.

    OTOH, do we really know that a processor does not draw say 200A for a few microseconds when it changes from its idle speed in a C6 or C7 state, to full Turbo speed at 100% usage? We typical PC enthusiasts have no method of measuring that.

  4. #4
    Gdgiordano is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: z97 extreme 4 + I7 4790k= very bad defaults?

    Quote Originally Posted by parsec View Post
    The Turbo boost power maximum and processor current limit settings you mentioned are standard settings in ASRock and other mother board's BIOS. I have left those setting untouched on my ASRock Z87 and Z97 boards, and my processors average idle temperatures are in the low 20's C.

    Both of those settings at the default values does not cause 1000A of current or 1000W of power to be applied to a processor unless:

    1. The processors VCore voltage is high enough to allow such currents and powers to be drawn.

    2. The processor is over clocked to a level that it will actually need that much power.

    3. The load on the processor is very high, 100% usage on all cores.

    Even with all three of these factors established, that still does not cause any where near 1000W or 1000A to be used. It is also impossible for a processor at idle to be using that kind of power.

    The Turbo Boost maximum is 1000W, and the Processor current limit is 1000A. That does not mean that is supplied to the processor at all times, or at any time. An AC power outlet in your home can provide 15A at 120V, or 1800W, but is it putting that much power into a wall wart power supply that is charging a cell phone?

    You could download and install Intel's Extreme Tuning Utility, run its stress test, and see the amount of power being used, among other things. This is what a little Pentium Anniversary G3258 at 4.2GHz looks like running an IXTU stress test:

    z97 extreme 4 + I7 4790k= very bad defaults?-ixtu-1-png

    You can see the Turbo Boost Maximum power is set to 1000W and the Processor Current Limit is 1000A, in the upper right side of the screen. At the bottom we can see the cores running a 4.2GHz, a total processor TDP of 41W, CPU temperature of 42C, CPU utilization of 100%. The rated TDP of the G3258 is 53W, vs 88W for your i7-4790K. The 1000W and 1000A limits would be even more crazy for a G3258 than an i7 processor, if that much power was actually delivered to it.

    Note that there is a time limit parameter for the Turbo Boost Power Time Window, of eight seconds.

    By reducing the current and power limits in your BIOS, nothing usually happens except under high processor load conditions, and then only if its power usage was beyond the 88W or 105A settings you're using. You'd then experience Current Limit or Power Limit throttling, the core speeds would be reduced to reduce power usage.

    Your i7's high idle temperature was caused by other settings in the BIOS that you changed, not these two settings. It seems like you're using a stock heat sink on a hot running Haswell processor.

    It's true that the 1000A max and 1000W limit settings are never reached by almost anyone, and simply look impressive. Increasing or reducing them does nothing to a processor unless they are set so low they induce current or power throttling.

    OTOH, do we really know that a processor does not draw say 200A for a few microseconds when it changes from its idle speed in a C6 or C7 state, to full Turbo speed at 100% usage? We typical PC enthusiasts have no method of measuring that.
    Ok I didn't change anything ram or Cpu related untIl having this issue. The 1.5 bios didn't fix it. I'll send you my tuning numbers with the bad defaults on the left.
    Attached Images Attached Images z97 extreme 4 + I7 4790k= very bad defaults?-image-jpg 

  5. #5
    parsec's Avatar
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    Default Re: z97 extreme 4 + I7 4790k= very bad defaults?

    I'm aware of your "fixed" values, which you mentioned in your first post. But I don't get your point.

    I wouldn't wait for the default values of 1000 to be changed, they won't be. While these values could theoretically damage a processor, they have become the typical values found in the BIOS of most mother boards. That is done for processor over clocking purposes, which is one of the marketed purposes of your board, and many others.

    While I agree with you in the sense that those values seem unnecessarily large, there is more to it. They have been used for years and are not known to cause any damage. In use they are no different than connecting a 0.5W night light to a 120V, 20A AC circuit that is capable of supplying 2400W. Having a huge power source or high power limit does not mean that the power "sink" (the part using power) will always draw the maximum power from the source, or that the source is capable of forcing that power into the sink.

    There is nothing wrong with the power and current limits you use, they are the maximums from the Intel processor data sheet. They are also the maximum power and current values for the processor operating at all stock clock rates, both standard and Turbo, while using the stock Intel thermal "solution", or heat sink. That heat sink is a limiting factor, and unnecessarily so. It is used in all the temperature and power limit calculations, and played a large role in the power and current maximum values. That is one reason why those maximum values may be easily and safely surpassed by using a better CPU heat sink.

    Those high power values actually serve another purpose than the simple processor power limit. They are used to defeat the the time limitation parameter of the Turbo Boost option when over clocking. Normally Turbo Boost is only meant to be active for a short time period, several seconds. The Turbo time limit algorithm takes the average power used by the processor compared to a value calculated using the the maximum Turbo power value in the calculation. A very high maximum power value results in an effectively infinite Turbo Boost time limit, which of course allows an over clock to operate constantly without a time limit.

    A few other observations:

    Setting the power and current limits to the standard Intel values will cause your processor to behave by the standard Turbo Boost rules. The Turbo speed will be maintained for the standard time limits in the BIOS (eight seconds) and drop down to the standard processor speed after that. Nothing wrong with that as long as you prefer it.

    An ASRock "Over Clocking Series" board I have has the default maximum power value set to 4000W.

    The Intel Extreme Tuning Utility program allows setting the Maximum Turbo Boost power, both Short Term and Maximum, to just under 4096W.

    The Intel Extreme Tuning Utility program allows setting the Processor Current Limit to a bit under 1024A.

    I'll leave you with two excerpts from the same Intel processor data sheet that you found the standard Intel power and current maximum values:

    (PL1)
    This value sets the average power limit over a long time
    period. This is normally aligned to the TDP of the part and
    steady-state cooling capability of the thermal solution. The
    default value is the TDP for the SKU.
    PL1 limit may be set lower than TDP in real time for specific
    needs, such as responding to a thermal event. If it is set
    lower than TDP, the processor may require to use frequences
    below the guaranteed P1 frequency to control to the low
    power limits. The PL1 Clamp bit [16] should be set to enable
    the processor to use frequencies below P1 to control to the set
    power limit.
    PL1 limit may be set higher than TDP. If set higher than TDP,
    the processor could stay at that power level continuously and
    cooling solution improvements may be required
    .


    PL2 establishes the upper power limit of turbo operation above
    TDP, primarily for platform power supply considerations. Power
    may exceed this limit for up to 10 ms. The default for this limit is
    1.25 x TDP but the BIOS may reprogram it to maximize the
    performance within platform power supply considerations. Setting
    this limit to TDP will limit the processor to only operate up to
    TDP
    . It does not disable turbo because turbo is opportunistic and
    power/temperature dependent. Many workloads will allow some
    turbo frequencies for powers at or below TDP.

  6. #6
    Gdgiordano is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: z97 extreme 4 + I7 4790k= very bad defaults?

    Quote Originally Posted by parsec View Post
    I'm aware of your "fixed" values, which you mentioned in your first post. But I don't get your point.

    I wouldn't wait for the default values of 1000 to be changed, they won't be. While these values could theoretically damage a processor, they have become the typical values found in the BIOS of most mother boards. That is done for processor over clocking purposes, which is one of the marketed purposes of your board, and many others.

    While I agree with you in the sense that those values seem unnecessarily large, there is more to it. They have been used for years and are not known to cause any damage. In use they are no different than connecting a 0.5W night light to a 120V, 20A AC circuit that is capable of supplying 2400W. Having a huge power source or high power limit does not mean that the power "sink" (the part using power) will always draw the maximum power from the source, or that the source is capable of forcing that power into the sink.

    There is nothing wrong with the power and current limits you use, they are the maximums from the Intel processor data sheet. They are also the maximum power and current values for the processor operating at all stock clock rates, both standard and Turbo, while using the stock Intel thermal "solution", or heat sink. That heat sink is a limiting factor, and unnecessarily so. It is used in all the temperature and power limit calculations, and played a large role in the power and current maximum values. That is one reason why those maximum values may be easily and safely surpassed by using a better CPU heat sink.

    Those high power values actually serve another purpose than the simple processor power limit. They are used to defeat the the time limitation parameter of the Turbo Boost option when over clocking. Normally Turbo Boost is only meant to be active for a short time period, several seconds. The Turbo time limit algorithm takes the average power used by the processor compared to a value calculated using the the maximum Turbo power value in the calculation. A very high maximum power value results in an effectively infinite Turbo Boost time limit, which of course allows an over clock to operate constantly without a time limit.

    A few other observations:

    Setting the power and current limits to the standard Intel values will cause your processor to behave by the standard Turbo Boost rules. The Turbo speed will be maintained for the standard time limits in the BIOS (eight seconds) and drop down to the standard processor speed after that. Nothing wrong with that as long as you prefer it.

    An ASRock "Over Clocking Series" board I have has the default maximum power value set to 4000W.

    The Intel Extreme Tuning Utility program allows setting the Maximum Turbo Boost power, both Short Term and Maximum, to just under 4096W.

    The Intel Extreme Tuning Utility program allows setting the Processor Current Limit to a bit under 1024A.

    I'll leave you with two excerpts from the same Intel processor data sheet that you found the standard Intel power and current maximum values:

    (PL1)
    This value sets the average power limit over a long time
    period. This is normally aligned to the TDP of the part and
    steady-state cooling capability of the thermal solution. The
    default value is the TDP for the SKU.
    PL1 limit may be set lower than TDP in real time for specific
    needs, such as responding to a thermal event. If it is set
    lower than TDP, the processor may require to use frequences
    below the guaranteed P1 frequency to control to the low
    power limits. The PL1 Clamp bit [16] should be set to enable
    the processor to use frequencies below P1 to control to the set
    power limit.
    PL1 limit may be set higher than TDP. If set higher than TDP,
    the processor could stay at that power level continuously and
    cooling solution improvements may be required
    .


    PL2 establishes the upper power limit of turbo operation above
    TDP, primarily for platform power supply considerations. Power
    may exceed this limit for up to 10 ms. The default for this limit is
    1.25 x TDP but the BIOS may reprogram it to maximize the
    performance within platform power supply considerations. Setting
    this limit to TDP will limit the processor to only operate up to
    TDP
    . It does not disable turbo because turbo is opportunistic and
    power/temperature dependent. Many workloads will allow some
    turbo frequencies for powers at or below TDP.
    Ok thanks. Next question is why do I get power limit throttling under a stress test? Is that normal?

  7. #7
    parsec's Avatar
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    Default Re: z97 extreme 4 + I7 4790k= very bad defaults?

    It's normal when you set the power limits in the BIOS as low as you have! That happens with your new power limit settings, right? This may also be related to the CPU cooler you are using.

    This is a perfect example of what I talked about in my previous post. A stress test runs for much longer than the standard time frame for Turbo boost, did you notice the processor speed drop from the Turbo speed of 4.4GHz to 4.0GHz? I would expect that with the lower power limit settings you used.

    I know that may seem to contradict what Intel wrote in the manual for the power limit values, but it really isn't. It's also ironic if Intel is logging the change from the Turbo boost frequency to the standard processor frequency (from 4.4GHz to 4.0GHz) as a power limit throttle, but strictly speaking it is just that. Or did it go below 4.0GHz?

    You must be using IXTU since it is the only program that will show power limit throttling.

    All over clocking of Intel processors since Sandy Bridge is based on Turbo boost, the ability to set the core multipliers to a higher value than the standard CPU frequency. But since Turbo boost is designed to be, to quote Intel, "turbo is opportunistic and power/temperature dependent", which means time limited, there must be a way to override that so an over clock will "stick", stay at the speed beyond the standard processor speed. One way to do that is... set the power limits very high, such as 1000W.

    Intel does not say much about over clocking, certainly not in the processor data sheets. The specs in the data sheet are all stock standard ratings using the stock CPU cooler, and the processor operating by all the rules. Over clocking is not operating a processor by the rules.

    For a test, try increasing the power limit in IXTU from 88W or 105W to 200W, and see if you get power limit throttling. That won't change it in the BIOS, and the change will only remain until you reboot the PC, or change it again in IXTU.

  8. #8
    Gdgiordano is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: z97 extreme 4 + I7 4790k= very bad defaults?

    So in XTU if I am not over temp or anything is it safe. I broke down and got a watercooler. What numbers should I watch to prevent damage?

  9. #9
    parsec's Avatar
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    Default Re: z97 extreme 4 + I7 4790k= very bad defaults?

    IXTU is not known as a terribly difficult stress test compared to others like Prime95, but I've never seen a true comparison of these tests. It sounds like you are experiencing the hot Haswell thing, since Ivy Bridge mainstream processors were released, Intel changed to standard TIM instead of solder between the processor die and IHS. Haswell processors are a bit worse due to the on-CPU voltage regulators and the support for AVX2 instructions. Stress tests that use AVX2 instructions tend to really heat up Haswell processors, Prime95 does (new versions), AIDA64 does when AVX2 instructions are selected. Frankly it does not seem as if IXTU does that, but I don't know. At least it doesn't in short tests.

    Haswell CPUs heat throttle themselves at 100C, which I have had happen to my i5-4670K while using AIDA64 and AVX2 instruction testing. That was with a small AIO liquid cooler. That was over clocked to 4.4GHz, your CPU should be better than that, but using the stock Intel cooler will not be anywhere near enough even at stock clocks, given what you are apparently experiencing. IMO that is not a surprise at all.

    Lower is always better for CPU temperatures, I get worried once I hit 80C. At 100C your CPU will automatically throttle itself. Speaking of default BIOS settings, are you using those for CPU voltage? As in Auto settings? Usually they are too much, more than necessary.

    IXTU can show processor voltage, what are you getting during an IXTU stress test?

  10. #10
    Gdgiordano is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: z97 extreme 4 + I7 4790k= very bad defaults?

    Yes I am using the 'auto' voltage. Under stress test it can drop just below 1.1.

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