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Thread: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems




  1. #1
    Ken429 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

    Here I go again with Sata Port problems, but this time it is on the Z97 Extreme6/4790K system.
    I had the following configuration and it was working ok:
    Sata3_0 Sandisk Extreme Pro 256GB
    Sata3_1 OCZ Vertex 3 128GB - sometimes this drive would "disappear" at boot time!
    Sata3_2 WD Raptor 250GB
    Sata3_3 WD Black 1TB
    Sata3_5 WD Black 1TB
    Sata3_A3 Pioneer BDR-207D
    With the exception of the sometimes missing OCZ SSD this configuration worked Ok.

    A few days ago I replaced the OCZ SSD with a third WD Black 1TB drive. Sometime shortly after that change the system went into a funk. The boot times went out of site and W8.1 became unusable with the little blue circle spinning and eventually giving me the pretty blue screen. At that point I thought I had corrupted the boot drive (Sata3_0). I reinstalled W8.1 and nothing changed the system was unresponsive and had all the same problems. I disconnected all the drives and installed a brand new Sandisk Extreme Pro SSD. Reinstalled W8.1 on this drive and ran the system with no issues. I then reconnected the other drives one at a time and discovered Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 although detected by the BIOS W8.1 did not recognize either port. BUT when a drive was in Sata3_3 or Sata3_4 Windows had a tendency to become unresponsive and eventually crash. So I ended up moving the WD Black drive I wanted on Sata3_3 or on Sata3_4 to Sata3_A1 and all is "well".

    I tried the following after reinstalling W8.1 on the new SSD before giving up on Sata3_3 and Sata3_4:
    Reverted back to the BIOS's default settings.
    Removed 2 of the 4 GSkill 2400 4GB memory sticks.
    Change the Memory to Auto vs XMP 1.3.
    Swapped Sata cables.
    Ran Chkdsk on the WD Black drive.
    Tried a different WD Black 640GB drive on Sata3_3 and Sata3_4.
    Set the M2.2/Sata3_4, Sata3_5 Switch to Force Sata instead of Auto.
    AND probably a few other things I've missed!

    Seems strange that I'm having problems with the "dual" usage ports. This problem may have been there since day since I was not using all the Sata ports until a few days ago. Any ideas on what the heck is going on would be appreciated.

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    Default Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

    Have you tried changing NCQ/AHCI/IDE options? Since you are using a mix of SSDs and HDDs, it may affect the windows operation.

  3. #3
    parsec's Avatar
    parsec is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

    Quote Originally Posted by bahram_alinezhad View Post
    Have you tried changing NCQ/AHCI/IDE options? Since you are using a mix of SSDs and HDDs, it may affect the windows operation.
    Don't change the Intel SATA mode from AHCI!!!

    AHCI was originally invented to help HDDs achieve better performance, but fortunately helps SSDs perform better with a file system that was designed for HDDs. Mixing SATA HDDs and SSDs is not a problem, the SATA protocol is the same. Once the IO commands are in a drive, then it's the drives problem to get it right.

    I will ask you (Ken) if you are setting the SATA Device Type option for each drive listed in Storage Configuration? The choices are SSD and HDD, and should be used appropriately.

    IDE mode should be banned from any mother board's BIOS that only uses SATA ports. Sure it's fine on a board with IDE ports, as long as it does not interfere with the SATA controller. Intel SATA controllers don't have the separate IDE controllers that some older AMD chipsets have (thank God) or any way of separating IDE from AHCI, its all of nothing for Intel.

    If the SATA Device Type is not the problem, I suspect those SATA ports might not working correctly. Currently, I'm using all the Intel SATA ports except port 0, and all is well. My M.2 setting is Auto. I have two SSDs in RAID 0 on Intel ports 4 and 5, been like that for months.

    When you say Windows did not recognize the drives on ports 4 and 5, but were recognized in the BIOS, was that just Windows Explorer? Did you start Disk Management? or Device Manager?

    If you can get your HDDs running on the ASMedia ports, great, use them, you aren't loosing any performance.

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    Ken429 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

    parsec,

    I don't know if you recall but I had SATA recognition problems with Windows 8.1 and the Z97 Fatal1y Killer MB/G3258/GSkill 2400-1.65V memory. As soon as I replaced the memory with 1600-1.35V memory the problem went away. Seems like I have a very similar issue?! I went and bought another Z97 Extreme6 MB and another 4790K. I'll put some GSkill 2400-165V in it and see if I have the same problem as the other Z97 Extreme6/4790K system is having. If so, I'll try the some 1600-1.35V memory and see if that has any effect. Just like the Fatal1y system it acts Windows is missing a driver or something since every body else (USB standalone backup boot programs) recognize the drives in all the SATA ports.

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    Default Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

    Quote Originally Posted by parsec View Post
    Don't change the Intel SATA mode from AHCI!!!

    AHCI was originally invented to help HDDs achieve better performance, but fortunately helps SSDs perform better with a file system that was designed for HDDs.
    AFAIK, for SSDs, AHCI has no advantage over IDE because it has no effect when there is no magnetic head (and rotating plate). NVM is the optimized protocol for SSDs used in SATA-Express. If intel has updated its NCQ for SSDs and so its new AHCI is different from legacy conventional AHCI, you are right.

    Quote Originally Posted by parsec View Post
    Mixing SATA HDDs and SSDs is not a problem, the SATA protocol is the same. Once the IO commands are in a drive, then it's the drives problem to get it right.
    All boards I have seen until now, had a single option for all SATA channels to select AHCI/IDE. For that, I suggested him to play with this option. If new boards have separate option for different channels to choose IDE/AHCI I appreciate if you make me aware.

    Quote Originally Posted by parsec View Post
    I will ask you (Ken) if you are setting the SATA Device Type option for each drive listed in Storage Configuration? The choices are SSD and HDD, and should be used appropriately.
    Is there such per-channel option (Optimized NCQ for each drive)?

    Quote Originally Posted by parsec View Post
    IDE mode should be banned from any mother board's BIOS that only uses SATA ports. Sure it's fine on a board with IDE ports, as long as it does not interfere with the SATA controller.
    For compatibility to older operating systems (windows xp) it is necessary to use IDE mode. AHCI has a performance gain over IDE but not too much, thus, compatibility is more important.

    Quote Originally Posted by parsec View Post
    Intel SATA controllers don't have the separate IDE controllers that some older AMD chipsets have (thank God) or any way of separating IDE from AHCI, its all of nothing for Intel.
    Thank God for which? AMD or Intel?

    Quote Originally Posted by parsec View Post
    If the SATA Device Type is not the problem, I suspect those SATA ports might not working correctly. Currently, I'm using all the Intel SATA ports except port 0, and all is well. My M.2 setting is Auto. I have two SSDs in RAID 0 on Intel ports 4 and 5, been like that for months.
    How?!
    According to manual, SATA Ports 4, 5, M2_2, and SATA_Express are shared, so only one of them can be used! As seen in Ken's first configuration, he was aware of that, so skipped port 4 and connected the last drive to port 5.
    If you discovered that the shared ports are not 4 and 5, this is the key answer for his problem :-) From his description, I suspected that shared ports should be rather 3 and 4!

    Quote Originally Posted by parsec View Post
    When you say Windows did not recognize the drives on ports 4 and 5, but were recognized in the BIOS, was that just Windows Explorer? Did you start Disk Management? or Device Manager?

    If you can get your HDDs running on the ASMedia ports, great, use them, you aren't loosing any performance.
    Last edited by bahram_alinezhad; 05-13-2015 at 10:13 PM.

  6. #6
    parsec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

    Quote Originally Posted by bahram_alinezhad View Post
    AFAIK, for SSDs, AHCI has no advantage over IDE because it has no effect when there is no magnetic head (and rotating plate). NVM is the optimized protocol for SSDs used in SATA-Express. If intel has updated its NCQ for SSDs and so its new AHCI is different from legacy conventional AHCI, you are right.
    A basic feature of AHCI is NCQ, Native Command Queuing, it has always been part of AHCI. Up to 32 IO requests are in memory that are available to a drive (HDD or SSD) without any additional IO requests sent to the file system. NCQ is the basis for many

    IDE does not have NCQ, so the file system sends one IO request to a drive at a time. When the drive completes the IO request, the file system then prepares and sends another. That is inefficient and is the main reason AHCI with NCQ is much faster. I assure you that an SSD used in IDE mode will not perform at the same level that it does in AHCI mode.

    AHCI allows HDDs to examine the IO requests in the AHCI queue, and sort them for optimal retrieval, meaning less head movement. SSDs are not affected by the limitations of the disk in HDDs.

    NCQ is the basis for reducing IO requests to the file system, and allowing a HDD to sort requests for minimal head movement. Without NCQ, AHCI is almost worthless, I can't imagine that an earlier version of AHCI did not have NCQ.

    NVMe is the new replacement for AHCI, which allows for multiple IO command queues (AHCI has one queue) and the queues have many more IO instructions (AHCI maximum is 32). The only NVMe drive available now is the Intel 750, which is a pure PCIe device, used in a PCIe slot. Samsung's NVMe variant of the SM951 has problems using the Windows 8 native NVMe driver, and cannot be purchased anywhere now.

    All standard SATA III SSDs cannot use NVMe, so NVMe is not a protocol for existing SSDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by bahram_alinezhad View Post
    All boards I have seen until now, had a single option for all SATA channels to select AHCI/IDE. For that, I suggested him to play with this option. If new boards have separate option for different channels to choose IDE/AHCI I appreciate if you make me aware.

    Is there such per-channel option (Optimized NCQ for each drive)?
    Some AMD chipsets have multiple controls for IDE and SATA ports, or can run some SATA ports in IDE mode, and others in AHCI or RAID mode.

    Quote Originally Posted by bahram_alinezhad View Post
    For compatibility to older operating systems (windows xp) it is necessary to use IDE mode. AHCI has a performance gain over IDE but not too much, thus, compatibility is more important.

    Thank God for which? AMD or Intel?
    Yes, compatibility with legacy OSes. The problem with that is in order to maintain compatibility, people use IDE mode when it is not necessary because they don't know better. Legacy compatibility also holds back the adoption of new capabilities. Intel adopted new sub-releases of the SATA III standard in their 8 and 9 series chipsets, which are then not compatible with some older drives, including some early SSDs. It must happen at some point.

    It is ironic that AHCI/NCQ helps SSDs perform better, when it was originally designed to increase HDD performance.

    I was saying thank God Intel does not have multiple modes (IDE and SATA) at the same time on their SATA ports, more chance of confusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by bahram_alinezhad View Post
    How?!
    According to manual, SATA Ports 4, 5, M2_2, and SATA_Express are shared, so only one of them can be used! As seen in Ken's first configuration, he was aware of that, so skipped port 4 and connected the last drive to port 5.
    If you discovered that the shared ports are not 4 and 5, this is the key answer for his problem :-) From his description, I suspected that shared ports should be rather 3 and 4!
    I agree, but when only one of them can be used, that means either both SATA3_4 and SATA3_5 can be used, or the M2_2 slot, or the SATA Express connection (SATA ports 4 and 5, plus the SATA Express connector.)

    Ken is not using the M2_2 slot, or using SATA Express. So both SATA ports 4 and 5 should be working.

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    Default Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

    Thank you for your notice and information sharing: parsec

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    parsec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

    Not to worry Bahram (I hope that is your name, sorry for my ignorance), I happen to be an SSD enthusiast, while others are gaming enthusiast and others like to over clock their processors as much as possible.

    I have studied this quite a bit and I think it is important because storage IO is still the slowest part of a PC, even with SSDs. What we really need is a new file system of some kind. AHCI is really a fix (IMO) that Intel and Seagate designed to overcome the limitations of existing PC file systems.

    My comments were not directed at you, I have been frustrated about the use of AHCI, and whenever I see it being dismissed as not useful, I start lecturing.

    It took so long for AHCI to become adopted as a standard by mother board manufactures, the default SATA mode was IDE until only a few years ago. Of course that was related to the use of versions of Windows that did not support AHCI, Windows 7 was really the first Microsoft product that did.

    I have the same board as Ken429 does, so I am very familiar with it, and the way the SATA and M.2 ports work.

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    Ken429 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

    While you two were having your heated debate on the merits of AHCI versus IDE my problems got more convoluted!

    I set up my second Z97 Extreme6/4790K system and had even more issues with SATA ports! I set up the system with a Cloned version of Windows from the first Z97 Extreme6/4790K system. Both systems are using a Sandisk Extreme Pro 240GB SSD and have two sticks of GSkill Z 2400-10 1.65V memory installed. After getting Windows to settle down, get activated, etc. I noticed that the MB came with BIOS 1.40 so I promptly updated to the latest BIOS 2.10 using the BIOS Instant Flash. All went well, I loaded the BIOS defaults and Windows 8.1 seemed to be OK.

    I then loaded up the system with 5 hard drives connected to the Intel ports 1,2,3,4,5. However, the only drive that Windows would recognize was Port 0 and the DVD burner that was installed on one of the ASMedia ports. Just like the problem I had with the G3258 system. So, I switched the memory to the Mushkin 1600-9 1.35V thinking I had the solution! Wrong, nothing changed, apparently the 4790K can handle the faster memory with no issues.

    Next I swapped the drives on Port 0 and Port 2 and rebooted. This time Windows recognized two drives!

    At that point I gave up for the night and pulled all the hard drives.

    Next morning I installed a couple of SSD's in Port 1 and 2 cleared CMOS, loaded the BIOS defaults and Windows recognized all three drives. Then I connected a hard drive to Port 3 rebooted and was very discouraged when Windows did not recognize the new drive. Moved the drive to Port 5 rebooted and again Windows did not recognize the drive.

    Reloaded the BIOS defaults and rebooted and Windows DID recognize the drive on Port 5.

    Moved the hard drive to Port 4 rebooted and Windows DID NOT recognize the drive on Port 4!

    Reloaded the BIOS defaults rebooted and Windows DID recognize the drive on Port 4!!

    While all this is going on the BIOS always recognized all the drives on all the ports. Since I seem to be the only person having this problem on multiple systems I must have some piece of software running that is screwing up Windows 8.1 on a Z97 based system. I have pretty much the same stuff running on several other Z77/W8.1 systems on do not have any SATA issues with them.

    Just to add to my frustration, I tried to update the BIOS from 1.70 to 2.10 on the first Z97 Extreme6 system using the BIOS Instant Flash and it would not connect to the internet?! The Clear CMOS/Load BIOS defaults routine had no effect on this system. Windows would still not recognize a drive on Port 3 or 4. Why in the world did I get so committed to ASRock Z97 MB's?
    Last edited by Ken429; 05-14-2015 at 07:00 PM.

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    Ken429 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

    parsec,

    My "Extreme6 System 2" has settled into a consistent pattern. When I add a drive to one of the Intel SATA Ports it is not recognized. When I go into the BIOS and Load UEFI Defaults Windows recognizes the new drive. I have been able to get all the Intel SATA Ports working using this approach. I have been unable to figure out what piece of software I'm using that causes W8.1/Z97 to run amok. One thing I wanted to try was using Raid Mode setting versus AHCI Mode to see if maybe whoever or whatever is screwing with the W8.1 behavior might not effect the Raid drivers. I know you said in a previous post that you are using Raid Mode on your Extreme6 MB. Is the best way to switch still to go into the Registry and make the changes same as was the W7 approach?

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