Please report all spam threads, posts and suspicious members. We receive spam notifications and will take immediate action!
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 22

Thread: EP45-DS3P/e5200/DDR2-800: OC of FSB,CPU,MCH,ratio,timing confused... please help




  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    46

    Question EP45-DS3P/e5200/DDR2-800: OC of FSB,CPU,MCH,ratio,timing confused... please help

    Hi all!

    I need some guidance regarding following overclocking goals. I try to be as short as possible, but my question is complex. I did not make any overclocking until now, but I was looking in the internet for as many information as possible, so I think I am familiar with the basics, where can I set the values etc. But I realized the overclocking is much more complicated if you have to consider the relationship between all main settings and not to mention the subsettings. I have read of course LSDMEASAP's sticky threads about the P35 OC and Memory guide.
    In addition some informations what I found (and made me confused a little bit), maybe is it useful for someone else also:
    Secrets of the i965 based Asus P5B and chipset strap uncovered. - The Tech Repository Forums
    Overclockable RAM - Review Tom's Hardware : Overclocking Guide Part 2: Suggested Components and Settings
    Legion Hardware
    Legion Hardware
    Legion Hardware
    Legion Hardware

    My configuration:
    GA-EP45-DS3P
    Intel Pentium Dual Core E5200
    GeiL Ultra DDR2-800 2x1024MB Kit (4-4-4-12;2.0V)
    Corsair VX550 PSU
    Sapphire Ati HD4670 GDDR4 512MB
    Windows XP Prof. 32bit

    I would like to make a little overclocking, if possible with stock fan and stock cooling at first. As I have found in some results (24/7) that is maybe possible around 3-3.2 GHz CPU speed. I would like to reach the best performance between FSB-CPU clock-Memory multiplier-MCH strap-Memory timings-Heat-Voltage. Below my questions considering the above linked informations, results and the guides in this forum.
    1.) Which is better for speed increase in real world applications keep the 1:1 syncron ratio of FSB:DRAM or let the RAM have more bandwidth than the CPU FSB 3:5?
    Some results show for a 800MHz CPU FSB is more than enough to have DDR2-400 Dual Channel. Very little gains in performance if you use faster ram, but maybe you can lower the timings a lot and in the other thread you can find it can be more efficient than a higher clocked DDR2 or DDR3 with looser timings. What more some articles claim that I should keep the 1:1 ratio and underclock the DDR2-800 ram.
    2.) Because of the small CPU clock speed of E5200 (200MHz) it is impossible(?) to reach the 1:1 ratio, if I would like to have the full 400MHz bus frequency of ram and CPU host frequency the same.
    So I should use less. But there comes another thing the MCH latch/strap. I have to consider 3 things:
    a) heat; this board can handle upto 400MHz MCH strap if I am right, so stock cooling should be enough(?). Therefore I found some calculation of the MCH overclocking followed the FSB oc. (see first link): original max. cpu multiplier / set cpu multiplier x FSB (btw. is it right?)
    b) MCH strap; I can choose between 200-266-333-400. So in the bios, the system memory multiplier is connected to this (A,B,C,D and some fixed numbers) What is a better strap I should try in my case (according to overall configuration performance)? I read these:
    http://forums.tweaktown.com/f69/plea...42/#post283871
    http://forums.tweaktown.com/f69/conf...28/#post259190
    MCH Latch Frequency Confusion - XtremeSystems Forums
    c) memory timings; considered all above it seems I should try to find the smallest latency values, to have a better overall performance results, instead of higher dram frequency(?) How is it related to MCH strap, Static tREAD Value, T1/T2 command rate if I use less then 400MHz FSB and underclocked DDR2-800 ram?

    Now theoretical what would be the best setting to achieve best performance/speed? I know I have to try some settings, but what should I consider at all? I hope you can understand what confusing me altogether.
    For example is it worth to change tREAD or command rate? What performance increase can I expect against stability and more voltage?
    How much performance can I lose with higher MCH strap but more stability?
    etc.

    Let me show you some example (if we agree the 1:1 ratio is the best(isnt it?)):
    CPU Clock Ratio ..........................:10
    Fine CPU Clock Ratio.....................:0
    CPU Frequency ...........................: 3.0GHz
    CPU Host Frequency (Mhz) ............: 300Mhz
    System Memory Multiplier ..............: 2.00B (333 MCH) or 2.00D (400 MCH) << If I understand right 333 is better?
    Memory Frequency (Mhz) ..............: 600Mhz
    DRAM Timing 4-4-4-12 << I think I can set these lower because of above settings?!
    CPU Voltage: 2.0 << Can I set less voltage when underclocking the ram? Or it depends on the timing also?
    tREAD: ??? << lower MCH strap, lower possible tREAD if I am right, but what value should I consider approx.?
    Command Rate: ??? << Should I try T1? Depends on what?
    Voltages: Is it possible that I can run above with default normal settings also? If not what voltage settings should I increase at first, how much? If it isnt enough should I increase more or some other voltage first? How much? And so on...

    Do I understand the basic facts or is this all bulls...?

    If FSB:DRAM ratio doesnt matter(???):
    CPU Clock Ratio ..........................:11
    Fine CPU Clock Ratio.....................:0.5
    CPU Frequency ...........................: 3.06GHz
    CPU Host Frequency (Mhz) ............: 266Mhz
    System Memory Multiplier ..............: 3.00A (266 MCH) << !!!
    Memory Frequency (Mhz) ..............: 798Mhz
    DRAM Timing 4-4-4-12 << I think I can set these lower because of above settings?! Increased Memory Freq. but lower MCH strap
    CPU Voltage: 2.0 << Can I set less?
    tREAD: ??? << what value should I consider approx.?
    Command Rate: ??? << Should I try T1?
    Voltages: same questions as above ...

    Sorry for this long post but I hope you can help to understand the whole overclocking issue for my config.

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    46

    Wink Re: EP45-DS3P/e5200/DDR2-800: OC of FSB,CPU,MCH,ratio,timing confused... please help

    I did some research in the meantime to figure it out how to start, but these reviews and articles made it not easier...

    Choosing the Right Memory for Core 2 Duo Platform - Part 1 (page 6) - X-bit labs

    I see twice faster memory DDR2 533 vs 800 or 1066, only give max. 3-10% in performance if we can keep similar timings. OK. It is more than 0, so if I have the option to choose a memory multiplier it can work over the 1:1 ratio, I can change it. But on the otherside come the MCH strap and tREAD. Lets see some examples so I can better explain what is my question theoretical (I know I have to try, but I would like to choose as few as possible main settings according to the theory )
    1.) CPU host freq: 266
    multiplier: 12
    cpu speed: 3,192GHz
    Memory: 266 (ddr2-533) (ratio 1:1)
    MCH strap: 2 (333MHz or 400MHz) / effective calculated MCH 277 MHz << what are the benefits of each in this special underclocking situation?
    DRAM timings 4-4-4-12 << if lower strap, lower timings possible?
    tREAD: ?
    2.) CPU host freq 300
    multiplier: 10,5
    cpu speed: 3,15GHz
    Memory 300 (ddr2-600) (ratio 1:1)
    MCH strap 2 (333MHz or 400MHz) / effective calculated MCH 357 MHz
    DRAM timings 4-4-4-12 << maybe I can still lower this
    tREAD: ?
    Almost same CPU speed, but higher FSB, if am right 2.) would be much faster or can I reach such timings which compensates the higher FSB?
    3.)
    CPU host freq: 266
    multiplier: 12
    cpu speed: 3,192GHz
    Memory: 399 (ddr2-798) (ratio 2:3)
    MCH strap: 3 (266MHz) / effective calculated MCH 416 MHz << now I have a tight strap but the highest effective MCH compared to the first 2 calculations, what effect has this on system performance
    DRAM timings 4-4-4-12 << lower strap but higher MCH, how does it effect timings?
    tREAD: ?
    4.) CPU host freq: 350
    multiplier: 9
    cpu speed: 3,150GHz
    Memory: 350 (ddr2-700) (ratio 1:1)
    MCH strap: 2 (333MHz or 400MHz) / effective calculated MCH 486 MHz << now I have a looser strap but the top effective MCH compared to the first 3 calculations, what effect has this on system performance and which would be better?
    DRAM timings 4-4-4-12 << still under the given DDR2-800 specs., how does it effect timings considered MCH straps
    tREAD: ?
    Is it possible that I have to increase MCH voltage because we are beyond the 400MHz MCH default? Or maybe it will not work with this high FSB of 350 anyway?

    And as I mentioned in my first post I would like to find around this 3GHz with stock cooling and fan the lowest voltages and best performance combo.

    Thanks for your ideas.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    990

    Default Re: EP45-DS3P/e5200/DDR2-800: OC of FSB,CPU,MCH,ratio,timing confused... please help

    If you really want to know what the fastest setting is then try it yourself. Get SuperPi and Everest (use the memory benchmark). These are all synthetic though, so download the Crysis demo and 3Dmark for some 3D benchmarking (you won't see much difference in these two I think). If you want to know more about how to use these then Google is your friend.

    Lower strap is slightly faster, i.e. faster timings will not be possible. I don't even know if there is a relationship between strap and timings.
    Lower timings than 4-4-4-12 at DDR2 60 0are possible, but probably not worth it, you won't notice a difference in real appllications. It would be a better idea to run the RAM faster probably (higher RAM speed than 1:1 is pretty much never slower on Core 2 systems).

    All the tuning is not worth it since a little more CPU speed will make up for it. Spend $25-40 on a decent CPU cooler and save yourself endless hours of trying to finetune settings.


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    46

    Default Re: EP45-DS3P/e5200/DDR2-800: OC of FSB,CPU,MCH,ratio,timing confused... please help

    Hi Nickel!

    Thanks for reading my problems.

    I ve read your guide also and I see you are familiar in these things. You are right that I should try my own, but because you guys have already experience, I thought I can make my work easier if I knew what is worth to set, so I have better performance (as you can read in my second post). Sure I have spent days not only hours to have as much information as possible. Still as more reviews and articles I read as more I lost the track somehow. :)

    As for straps vs. timings I ve linked a post from LSDMEASAP > http://forums.tweaktown.com/f69/conf...28/#post259190
    Am I misunderstanding something?

    As for ratio and timings, you are right if I have a faster RAM with as tight timing as a slower one, definitely better. But if you look some test sometimes is a slower RAM with very tight timings better, furthermore if we consider straps vs. timings, can I have better results with a combinaton of higher memory multiplier-less FSB-tight MCH strap-lower tREAD and maybe 1:1 ratio?????
    http://forums.tweaktown.com/f69/new-...36/#post279308
    Whats more why do the reviews claim always this ratio is the best still by Core2Duo systems and I should underclock my DDR2-800 ram? (see my linked articles in my first post)

    Btw. is there a relationship between the calculated effective
    NB/MCH MHz - RAM MHz - FSB that causes the performance difference if we do not keep 1:1?
    cpu host freq.: 266 / FSB 1064 / RAM 798MHz (3x multi, 266 strap) dual channel / MCH effective 1664Mhz. So if I understand the bandwidth is higher through the NB and RAM if we use applications which do not need (or less) the CPU-NB-RAM way?

  5. #5
    Lsdmeasap's Avatar
    Lsdmeasap is offline GIGABYTE Guru
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    PCB Island
    Posts
    25,940

    Default Re: EP45-DS3P/e5200/DDR2-800: OC of FSB,CPU,MCH,ratio,timing confused... please help

    There are many things to consider when trying to decide this, and CPU Speed and advanced timings also must be taken into consideration when you are comparing scores.

    The best would be 1:1 in most instances, but depending on CPU and Ram speeds a different ratio may be better due to overall system speed and ability to run tighter ram settings.

    You want to use the lowest NB/MCH Strap you can boot with, but you really do want to keep your ram at or above stock speeds. Underclocking it for better timings, or a looser strap would not provide any real world gain.

    Lower strap does allow tighter tRD (Static tRead) but only to a certain extent. Overall ram speed, and all other ram timings and voltages related also are a factor. As for main timings, no a lower strap does not allow lower main timings, those will be mostly governed by total Memory speeds. Such as 3xx-x will only work up to about 667-750, and 4xx-x will only work up to about 85-900. Of course all other settings will also affect how much those ranges apply, as well as ram quality and amount.

    What FSB are you running? If you want, I can give you a set of optimal full timings for your system. If you would like this please provide me a link to your ram, and also please do specify a FSB you would like to run if you are not running what you want already.

    If you are still on the stock cooler you may or may not be able to run 400 FSB and would maybe need to run 333 or so using the 2.40 Multi. What are your CPU multi options in the BIOS, sorry I have not used a E5200 or seen much about them. Can you choose 8, if not what is your options x-12.5?

    If you can choose 8, I would be using 8x400 for 3.2Ghz with ram on the 2.40 Multi for 800Mhz, and see if your temps are ok. If they are then you may be able to run 9x400 for 3.6Ghz using the 2.00B Memory strap. But I would imagine you may need more voltage then your stock cooler will allow to run 3.6, but you never know as all CPU's are different and your's may run it with less volts and allow your cooler to cool it ok. Since you are wanting to overclock though, you should be saving for a better cooler anyway so you will have good temps at whatever freq you decide to run.

    Here is the MCH Straps and their associated Mutli's incase you did not know all of these or had not seen this image posted anywhere.



    Just thought it may help you with some of your questions about straps?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    990

    Default Re: EP45-DS3P/e5200/DDR2-800: OC of FSB,CPU,MCH,ratio,timing confused... please help

    I'm soon going to do some benchmarking on this myself since it does pop up pretty often and some simple benchmarks just for reference might actually help people understand the impact of these settings much better than any explanations.
    I'm going to wait for my UD3P to arrive for this, should be done in a week or so.


  7. #7
    Lsdmeasap's Avatar
    Lsdmeasap is offline GIGABYTE Guru
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    PCB Island
    Posts
    25,940

    Default Re: EP45-DS3P/e5200/DDR2-800: OC of FSB,CPU,MCH,ratio,timing confused... please help

    That would be great!

    What board are you using now? I see you are not following your signature

    Just giving ya a hard time!

    I am glad to see active users helping here, and I personally do appreciate any help you can or have provided. Have you spoke with VorLonUk yet? He is also another active user here who is very knowledgeable, who helps often with real issues as well (Not overclocking issues).

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    990

    Default Re: EP45-DS3P/e5200/DDR2-800: OC of FSB,CPU,MCH,ratio,timing confused... please help

    I'm not following my signature because I have too much stuff. And also my sig meant for people who want to be helped around here, and I don't need help. I'm here to help :) But maybe I should mention that in there, you're right^^

    What I have here is P35 DS3R, a X38 DQ6, an EP45 DS3L, and an Asus P5Q-E. An EP45 UD3P is on the way :)

    I've seen VorLonUK in some threads, seems like he also knows his stuff. I noticed he replied only to some threads, make sense now why if he only focuses on the real problems.

    My "specialty" is mainly cooling and overclocking, I guess I don't have that much experience in the real problems sector, but Google is my friend :)


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    46

    Wink Re: EP45-DS3P/e5200/DDR2-800: OC of FSB,CPU,MCH,ratio,timing confused... please help

    Quote Originally Posted by Lsdmeasap View Post
    There are many things to consider when trying to decide this, and CPU Speed and advanced timings also must be taken into consideration when you are comparing scores.
    Yes, indeed. As you already realized how many articles and reviews I ve read and still not sure which way is the best to get the best results. But I would like also understand the theory behind each setting so I think it will be easier.

    The best would be 1:1 in most instances, but depending on CPU and Ram speeds a different ratio may be better due to overall system speed and ability to run tighter ram settings.
    As you see in my examples there are some questions if I would like to keep 1:1 or change to different. What do you think about these?

    You want to use the lowest NB/MCH Strap you can boot with, but you really do want to keep your ram at or above stock speeds. Underclocking it for better timings, or a looser strap would not provide any real world gain.
    Lower strap does allow tighter tRD (Static tRead) but only to a certain extent. Overall ram speed, and all other ram timings and voltages related also are a factor. As for main timings, no a lower strap does not allow lower main timings,
    You wrote in a thread "A 333 strap is good to use as it allows more room for tighter ram timings and ease of getting stable, but those would only be to about 430 or so FSB, after that you should use 400 Strap"
    I am confused a little bit now... http://forums.tweaktown.com/f69/conf...28/#post259190
    those will be mostly governed by total Memory speeds. Such as 3xx-x will only work up to about 667-750, and 4xx-x will only work up to about 85-900. Of course all other settings will also affect how much those ranges apply, as well as ram quality and amount.
    What FSB are you running? If you want, I can give you a set of optimal full timings for your system. If you would like this please provide me a link to your ram, and also please do specify a FSB you would like to run if you are not running what you want already.
    OK. These above mentioned factors are the key. Please take a look at these :
    tRD (sorry, I ve found you are also familiar with this guide now I am trying to understand it right also) - AnandTech: ASUS ROG Rampage Formula: Why we were wrong about the Intel X48
    timings/ddr2 frequency - Choosing the Right Memory for Core 2 Duo Platform - Part 1 (page 8) - X-bit labs
    I dont understand the results, can we compare the results equally for the 266MHz and 400MHz(OC)? If we get a score or sec etc. and if less is better and any other settings remain, the 400Mhz gives worse results?!?
    266 > http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/memor...hz/superpi.png
    400 > http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/memor...hz/superpi.png

    What I would like to find out, if I keep my DDR2-800 stock frequency (or slightly above because of the fixed straps multipliers) or underclock to DDR2-600-700 (depends where I can find a tight MCH strap multiplier for 1:1 ratio), where is the crossover of RAM main timings-tRead-MCH straps-FSB for the better performance?
    If you look at my second post for examples you can better understand what I mean.

    RAM: Newegg.com - GeIL Ultra 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory

    If you are still on the stock cooler you may or may not be able to run 400 FSB and would maybe need to run 333 or so using the 2.40 Multi. What are your CPU multi options in the BIOS, sorry I have not used a E5200 or seen much about them. Can you choose 8, if not what is your options x-12.5?
    If you can choose 8, I would be using 8x400 for 3.2Ghz with ram on the 2.40 Multi for 800Mhz, and see if your temps are ok. If they are then you may be able to run 9x400 for 3.6Ghz using the 2.00B Memory strap. But I would imagine you may need more voltage then your stock cooler will allow to run 3.6, but you never know as all CPU's are different and your's may run it with less volts and allow your cooler to cool it ok. Since you are wanting to overclock though, you should be saving for a better cooler anyway so you will have good temps at whatever freq you decide to run.
    Yes this is the another key factor for my problem because Dual Core E5200 is different to the previous Core2Duo systems although they use Wolfdale 45nm core both, but less L2 cache and it has no SSE 4.1. System bus is only 800Mhz, default cpu clockin 12,5x200MHz! (As for oc results i found it can be reached high cpu speed but not high host frequency and so FSB) There is the other part what should I consider if I do not want to go above 3,2GHz but as good performance as possible for ram (see previous thoughts).
    As for 400MHz FSB if you calculate the effective MCH as you linked in other threads and I found it previous also (The Tech Repository Forums - View Single Post - Secrets of the i965 based Asus P5B and chipset strap uncovered.) 8x400=3,2GHz CPU speed but 625MHz MCH!!! 9x400=3,6GHz (probably stock cooling fails) but still 556MHz MCH!!! Voltage and MCH cooling also a problem.

    What do you think? I hope you have the time and patience so I can understand all your thoughts regarding this issue.
    Last edited by vacapp; 02-20-2009 at 03:30 PM. Reason: I ve found some new infos... (GREEN)

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    46

    Default Re: EP45-DS3P/e5200/DDR2-800: OC of FSB,CPU,MCH,ratio,timing confused... please help

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickel020 View Post
    I'm soon going to do some benchmarking on this myself since it does pop up pretty often and some simple benchmarks just for reference might actually help people understand the impact of these settings much better than any explanations.
    I'm going to wait for my UD3P to arrive for this, should be done in a week or so.
    That would be great.
    You are right, concrete results can be compared better to see how you changed each important main settings and get better performance. I will try soon after I will be familiar with my open questions.
    Thanks for your thoughts regarding this issue.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •