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Thread: Help overclocking Gigabyte EP45-DS3R + E8400




  1. #1
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    Default Help overclocking Gigabyte EP45-DS3R + E8400

    I am new to overclocking and would like to overclock my E8400 to 3.6 -4.0Ghz range. I am currently running :

    -Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E8400 @ 3.00GHz
    -Gigabyte EP45-DS3R Bios version F10 now. I updated last night from F6 which was very old.
    -Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme CPU cooler
    -Corsair Dominator 2x1GB 1066MHz(PC2-8500 C5)
    -Microsoft Windows XP Pro SP3

    Any ideas on where to start? Thanks for the help in advance.

  2. #2
    Lsdmeasap's Avatar
    Lsdmeasap is offline GIGABYTE Guru
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    Default Re: Help overclocking Gigabyte EP45-DS3R + E8400

    Sure thing. Here ya go, this should get you in at 4Ghz once you find a stable Vcore for your CPU >>>

    MB Intelligent Tweaker(M.I.T.)
    Robust Graphics Booster ...............: Auto or Fast
    CPU Clock Ratio ..........................: 9
    Fine CPU Clock Ratio.....................:.0
    CPU Frequency ...........................: 4.05


    Clock Chip Control
    Standard Clock Control
    CPU Host Clock Control..................: [Enabled]
    CPU Host Frequency (Mhz) ............: 450Mhz
    PCI Express Frequency (Mhz) .........:Set to 100

    C.I.A.2 .................................:[Disabled]


    Advanced Clock Control [Press Enter]
    CPU Clock Drive...........................: <<< 800
    PCI Express Clock Drive.................: <<< 900
    CPU Clock Skew (ps)....................: <<<
    MCH Clock Skew (ps)...................: <<<


    DRAM Performance Control
    Performance Enhance...................: [STANDARD]
    Extreme Memory Profile (X.M.P.).....: Disabled
    (G)MCH Frequency Latch...............: [Auto]
    System Memory Multiplier ..............: 2.00D (2.00B may work for you as well, it would be better but is harder to get stable often at high FSB) This is for 900Mhz. You can also try 2.40B for 1080Mhz, or 2.66D for 1197Mhz, but I would try BOTH of those later. Get it going at 900 first

    Memory Frequency (Mhz) ..............: 900Mhz
    DRAM Timing Selectable ................: [Manual]

    Standard Timing Control
    CAS Latency Time........................5
    tRCD .........................................5
    tRP'...........................................5
    tRAS..........................................15/18

    Advanced Timing Control
    tRRD...........................................3-4
    tWTR..........................................3-5
    tWR............................................4-6
    tRFC...........................................52-62
    tRTP...........................................3-5
    Command Rate (CMD) ....................:2

    Driving Strength Profiles
    Driving Strength ............................1066

    Channel A
    Static tRead Value.........................:6/7-10 333/B MCH - 8/9-12 400/D MCH
    tRD Phase0 Adjustment...................:<<< Leave for all below as well
    tRD Phase1 Adjustment...................:Auto
    tRD Phase2 Adjustment .................:Auto
    tRD Phase3 Adjustment..................:Auto
    Trd2rd(Different Rank)....................:Auto
    Twr2wr(Different Rank)...................:Auto
    Twr2rd(Different Rank)...................:Auto
    Trd2wr(Same/Diff Rank)..................:Auto
    Dimm1 Clock Skew Control...............:Auto ps
    Dimm2 Clock Skew Control...............:Auto ps

    Channel B
    Static tRead Value.........................:6/7-10 333/B MCH - 8/9-12 400/D MCH
    tRD Phase0 Adjustment...................:<<< Leave for all below as well
    tRD Phase1 Adjustment...................:Auto
    tRD Phase2 Adjustment .................:Auto
    tRD Phase3 Adjustment..................:Auto
    Trd2rd(Different Rank)....................:Auto
    Twr2wr(Different Rank)...................:Auto
    Twr2rd(Different Rank)...................:Auto
    Trd2wr(Same/Diff Rank)..................:Auto
    Dimm1 Clock Skew Control...............:Auto ps
    Dimm2 Clock Skew Control...............:Auto ps

    Motherboard Voltage Control
    Voltage Type.………... Manual
    CPU
    CPU Vcore….……….........................:1.25-1.425+ (All up to your chip) Some do 4Ghz at 1.25 or less actual, some need 1.34+ actual. What you set in the BIOS will be less then what you get at idle, and then less than that at load so keep that in mind. Start by setting it high enough to boot then you can try to lower it later on

    CPU Termination…..... 1.200V*.......: <<< 1.2-1.36 (1.2-1.28 likely plenty)
    CPU PLL…………………....1.500V*.......: << 1.5-1.58

    CPU Referen.…………....0.755V*.......: <<< .64% Of Vtt (Termination above) Auto Will set this correctly

    CPU Reference2………,,0.800V*.......:<<< .67% Of Vtt (Termination above) Auto Will set this correctly

    MCH/ICH
    MCH Core…………….....1.100V...........: << Auto is generally fine with 2x1GB, if you feel you need some due to the increase in speed or want to try a lower tRD 1.14-1.24 should be good
    MCH Reference….…….0.800V...........; <<< Leave
    MCH/DRAM Ref.…......0.900V...........: <<< Leave
    ICH I/O……………….....1.550V............: <<< 1.5-1.6
    ICH Core…………...……1.100V............: <<< 1.14-1.2

    DRAM
    DRAM Voltage ……....1.800V............: 2.0-2.1 (Check your ram sticker)
    DRAM Termination .…0.900V............: <<< Leave
    Channel A Reference 0.900V............: <<< Leave
    Channel B Reference 0.900V............: <<< Leave

    Advanced Settings
    Limit CPUID Max. to 3.....................: [Disabled]
    No-Execute Memory Protect............: [Enabled]
    CPU Enhanced Halt (C1E)................: [Disabled]
    C2/C2E State Support....................: [Disabled]
    x C4/C4E State Support..................: [Disabled]
    CPU Thermal Monitor 2(TM2) ...........: [Enabled]
    CPU EIST Function.........................: [Disabled]
    Virtualization Technology................: [Disabled] Enabled if you use Vmware/Virtual PC

    Integrated Peripherals
    Legacy USB Storage Detect ..............[Disabled] *Note* Must be enabled to flash from USB

  3. #3
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    Apr 2009
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    Default Re: Help overclocking Gigabyte EP45-DS3R + E8400

    Thanks for your help. I made changes per your post :

    MB Intelligent Tweaker(M.I.T.)
    Robust Graphics Booster ...............: Auto or Fast [Kept at Auto]
    CPU Clock Ratio ..........................: 9 [changed]
    Fine CPU Clock Ratio.....................:.0
    CPU Frequency ...........................: 4.05


    Clock Chip Control
    Standard Clock Control
    CPU Host Clock Control..................: [Enabled] [changed]
    CPU Host Frequency (Mhz) ............: 450Mhz [changed]
    PCI Express Frequency (Mhz) .........:Set to 100 [changed]
    C.I.A.2 .................................:[Disabled] [changed]


    Advanced Clock Control [Press Enter]
    CPU Clock Drive...........................: <<< 800 [already set]
    PCI Express Clock Drive.................: <<< 900 [already set]
    CPU Clock Skew (ps)....................: <<<
    MCH Clock Skew (ps)...................: <<<


    DRAM Performance Control
    Performance Enhance...................: [STANDARD] [changed]
    Extreme Memory Profile (X.M.P.).....: Disabled [changed]
    (G)MCH Frequency Latch...............: [Auto] [changed]
    System Memory Multiplier ..............: 2.00D [changed]

    Memory Frequency (Mhz) ..............: 900Mhz [changed]
    DRAM Timing Selectable ................: [Manual] [changed]

    Standard Timing Control
    CAS Latency Time........................5 [5]
    tRCD .........................................5 [5]
    tRP'...........................................5 [5]
    tRAS..........................................15/18 [15] [changed] Per my memory 5-5-5-15-2T @ 2.1V @ 1066MHZ

    Advanced Timing Control [I changed to 4, 4, 5, 62, 4, 0]
    tRRD...........................................3-4
    tWTR..........................................3-5
    tWR............................................4-6
    tRFC...........................................52-62
    tRTP...........................................3-5
    Command Rate (CMD) ....................:2

    Driving Strength Profiles
    Driving Strength ............................1066 [I changed to 1066 on channel A and B]

    Channel A
    Static tRead Value.........................:6/7-10 333/B MCH - 8/9-12 400/D MCH [I did not touch this setting, currently AUTO, I did not understand "6/7-10 333/B MCH - 8/9-12 400/D MCH"]
    tRD Phase0 Adjustment...................:<<< Leave for all below as well
    tRD Phase1 Adjustment...................:Auto
    tRD Phase2 Adjustment .................:Auto
    tRD Phase3 Adjustment..................:Auto
    Trd2rd(Different Rank)....................:Auto
    Twr2wr(Different Rank)...................:Auto
    Twr2rd(Different Rank)...................:Auto
    Trd2wr(Same/Diff Rank)..................:Auto
    Dimm1 Clock Skew Control...............:Auto ps
    Dimm2 Clock Skew Control...............:Auto ps

    Channel B
    Static tRead Value.........................:6/7-10 333/B MCH - 8/9-12 400/D MCH [I did not touch this setting, currently AUTO, I did not understand "6/7-10 333/B MCH - 8/9-12 400/D MCH"]
    tRD Phase0 Adjustment...................:<<< Leave for all below as well
    tRD Phase1 Adjustment...................:Auto
    tRD Phase2 Adjustment .................:Auto
    tRD Phase3 Adjustment..................:Auto
    Trd2rd(Different Rank)....................:Auto
    Twr2wr(Different Rank)...................:Auto
    Twr2rd(Different Rank)...................:Auto
    Trd2wr(Same/Diff Rank)..................:Auto
    Dimm1 Clock Skew Control...............:Auto ps
    Dimm2 Clock Skew Control...............:Auto ps

    Motherboard Voltage Control
    Voltage Type.………... Manual
    CPU
    CPU Vcore….……….........................:1.25-1.425+ [changed to 1.32500V]
    CPU Termination…..... 1.200V*.......: <<< 1.2-1.36 (1.2-1.28 likely plenty) [NO CHANGE CURRENTLY AT 1.2]
    CPU PLL…………………....1.500V*.......: << 1.5-1.58 [NO CHANGE CURRENTLY AT 1.5]
    CPU Referen.…………....0.755V*.......: <<< .64% Of Vtt (Termination above) Auto Will set this correctly

    CPU Reference2………,,0.800V*.......:<<< .67% Of Vtt (Termination above) Auto Will set this correctly

    MCH/ICH
    MCH Core…………….....1.100V...........: << Auto is generally fine with 2x1GB, if you feel you need some due to the increase in speed or want to try a lower tRD 1.14-1.24 should be

    good
    MCH Reference….…….0.800V...........; <<< Leave
    MCH/DRAM Ref.…......0.900V...........: <<< Leave
    ICH I/O……………….....1.550V............: <<< 1.5-1.6
    ICH Core…………...……1.100V............: <<< 1.14-1.2

    DRAM
    DRAM Voltage ……....1.800V............: 2.0-2.1 [SET TO 2.1V]
    DRAM Termination .…0.900V............: <<< Leave
    Channel A Reference 0.900V............: <<< Leave
    Channel B Reference 0.900V............: <<< Leave

    Advanced Settings [changed all settings below]
    Limit CPUID Max. to 3.....................: [Disabled]
    No-Execute Memory Protect............: [Enabled]
    CPU Enhanced Halt (C1E)................: [Disabled]
    C2/C2E State Support....................: [Disabled]
    x C4/C4E State Support..................: [Disabled]
    CPU Thermal Monitor 2(TM2) ...........: [Enabled]
    CPU EIST Function.........................: [Disabled]
    Virtualization Technology................: [Disabled] Enabled if you use Vmware/Virtual PC

    Integrated Peripherals
    Legacy USB Storage Detect ..............[Disabled] *Note* Must be enabled to flash from USB
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I am in Windows on the desktop ... no problems so far. Couple comments and questions for you ....

    1) I made notes above what I changed in brackets. I also attached screenshot. Currently idling w RealTemp at 44C. I started a small FFT with prime95 and failed on worker1

    [Apr 16 17:49] Worker starting
    [Apr 16 17:49] Setting affinity to run worker on logical CPU #0
    [Apr 16 17:49] Beginning a continuous self-test to check your computer.
    [Apr 16 17:49] Please read stress.txt. Choose Test/Stop to end this test.
    [Apr 16 17:49] Test 1, 800000 Lucas-Lehmer iterations of M172031 using FFT length 8K.
    [Apr 16 17:50] FATAL ERROR: Resulting sum was 5.282945311356653e+269, expected: 720251562293606.3
    [Apr 16 17:50] Hardware failure detected, consult stress.txt file.
    [Apr 16 17:50] Torture Test completed 0 tests in 0 minutes - 1 errors, 0 warnings.
    [Apr 16 17:50] Worker stopped.



    2) Set CPU voltage to 1.325. Is that ok?

    3) With this Gigabyte motherboard I notice when I have my WD external 500GB USB drive attached the computer loops at BIOS sometimes. Any ideas? If I unplug it boots right up first time. I have the same external HD on another desktop w Asus motherboard and I do not have a problem. Is this Gigabyte specific?

    4) I did not change the Static tread values on channels A and B. I did not know what to choose?



    Again, thank you for your help.

    Kind regards, Jerel
    Last edited by jerel2k9; 04-17-2009 at 07:01 AM. Reason: updated

  4. #4
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    Apr 2009
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    Default Re: Help overclocking Gigabyte EP45-DS3R + E8400

    I am making progress since the above post. I re-entered the BIOS after the overclock and interestingly the Performance Enhance setting which initially was set at TURBO I changed to STANDARD. That only setting went back to TURBO. When I highlighted it the BIOS flashed a red message saying after overclock the system will be more stable with STANDARD. Most interesting! So I changed it to STANDARD and was able to complete a 1 hour small FFT torture test with Prime 95 ~ 71C.

    Also, I was able to resolve my reboot loop problem with my WD External HD drive by DISABLING the legacy USB storage detect which you indicated but I overlooked it being in the Integrated Peripherals section.

    I checked the Static tread values on channels A and B and it seems when I selected the STANDARD setting above it set them at 11 which seems to be in the range that you posted above. I didn't realize that was a range.

    So I am headed in the right direction here.... sitting at 4.05GHZ now. I need to run more stress testing. Please let me know your thoughts on what I've done so far.

    Thank you.

  5. #5
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    Apr 2009
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    6

    Default Re: Help overclocking Gigabyte EP45-DS3R + E8400

    I am experiencing the computer going into some sort of sleep state and nothing on the computer screen as if its going into sleep mode. I am not getting a blue screen of death. Any ideas what I can tweak in the overclock to resolve this issue. See below my current configuration. Thank you.

    MB Intelligent Tweaker(M.I.T.)
    Robust Graphics Booster ...............: Auto
    CPU Clock Ratio ..........................: 9 X
    Fine CPU Clock Ratio.....................: 0
    CPU Frequency ...........................: 4.05GHz( 450x9)


    Clock Chip Control
    Standard Clock Control
    CPU Host Clock Control..................: [Enabled]
    CPU Host Frequency (Mhz) ............: 450
    PCI Express Frequency (Mhz) .........: 100

    C.I.A.2 .................................:[Disabled]


    Advanced Clock Control [Press Enter]
    CPU Clock Drive...........................: 800
    PCI Express Clock Drive.................: 900
    CPU Clock Skew (ps)....................: 0ps
    MCH Clock Skew (ps)...................: 0ps


    DRAM Performance Control
    Performance Enhance...................: [STANDARD]
    Extreme Memory Profile (X.M.P.).....: [Disabled]
    (G)MCH Frequency Latch...............: Auto
    System Memory Multiplier ..............: 2.00D
    Memory Frequency(Mhz) ...........: 1066 900 <- values hardcoded in light blue
    DRAM Timing Selectable ................: [Manual]

    Standard Timing Control
    CAS Latency Time........................5
    tRCD .........................................5
    tRP'...........................................5
    tRAS..........................................15

    Advanced Timing Control
    tRRD...........................................4
    tWTR..........................................4
    tWR............................................5
    tRFC...........................................62
    tRTP...........................................4
    Command Rate (CMD) ....................:2

    Driving Strength Profiles
    Driving Strength ............................1066 for channel A and B

    Channel A
    Static tRead Value.........................:Auto 11
    tRD Phase0 Adjustment...................:Auto 0
    tRD Phase1 Adjustment...................:Auto 0
    tRD Phase2 Adjustment .................:Auto 0
    tRD Phase3 Adjustment..................:Auto 0
    Trd2rd(Different Rank)....................:Auto 6
    Twr2wr(Different Rank)...................:Auto 6
    Twr2rd(Different Rank)...................:Auto 5
    Trd2wr(Same/Diff Rank)..................:Auto 8
    Dimm1 Clock Skew Control...............:Auto
    Dimm2 Clock Skew Control...............:Auto
    DDR Write Training.....................:Auto

    Channel B
    Static tRead Value.........................:Auto 11
    tRD Phase0 Adjustment...................:Auto 0
    tRD Phase1 Adjustment...................:Auto 0
    tRD Phase2 Adjustment .................:Auto 0
    tRD Phase3 Adjustment..................:Auto 0
    Trd2rd(Different Rank)....................:Auto 6
    Twr2wr(Different Rank)...................:Auto 6
    Twr2rd(Different Rank)...................:Auto 5
    Trd2wr(Same/Diff Rank)..................:Auto 8
    Dimm1 Clock Skew Control...............:Auto
    Dimm2 Clock Skew Control...............:Auto
    DDR Write Training.....................:Auto

    Motherboard Voltage Control
    Voltage Type.………... Manual
    CPU
    CPU Vcore….……….........................: 1.325V
    CPU Termination…..... 1.200V*.......: AUTO 1.200V <- I tried hardcoding 1.20 but oc failed so I left at AUTO which shows 1.20
    CPU PLL…………………....1.500V*.......: AUTO 1.500V <- I tried hardcoding 1.50 but oc failed so I left at AUTO which shows 1.50
    CPU Reference…………....0.755V*.......: Auto
    CPU Reference2……… I DO NOT SEE THIS SETTING IN BIOS

    MCH/ICH
    MCH Core…………….....1.100V...........: Auto 1.10V
    MCH Reference….…….0.800V...........; Auto .760V <- I do not see a setting for .800. closest is .790 and .810
    MCH/DRAM Ref.…......0.900V...........: Auto .900V
    ICH I/O……………….....1.550V............: Auto 1.500V <- I do not see a setting for 1.550. closest is 1.500 and 1.570
    ICH Core…………...……1.100V............: I DO NOT SEE THIS SETTING IN BIOS

    DRAM
    DRAM Voltage ……....1.800V............: 2.100V
    DRAM Termination .…0.900V............: Auto .900V
    Channel A Reference 0.900V............: Auto .900V
    Channel B Reference 0.900V............: Auto .900V

    Advanced Settings
    Limit CPUID Max. to 3.....................: [Disabled]
    No-Execute Memory Protect............: [Enabled]
    CPU Enhanced Halt (C1E)................: [Disabled]
    C2/C2E State Support....................: [Disabled]
    x C4/C4E State Support..................: [Disabled]
    CPU Thermal Monitor 2(TM2) ...........: [Enabled]
    CPU EIST Function.........................: [Disabled]
    Virtualization Technology................: [Disabled]

    I am concerned that I do not have a CPU Reference2 and ICH Core setting in the BIOS. Please help!
    Last edited by jerel2k9; 04-19-2009 at 07:56 AM. Reason: updated

  6. #6

    Default Re: Help overclocking Gigabyte EP45-DS3R + E8400

    So I read your last post... whats your current problem? If nothings on the screen and the fans are still spinning, then probably you just bumped your vga out or something.

    You should bump your cpu vtt to 1.3 volts. Also keep in mind that you are assuming your chip can run at 4ghz. I had a e8400 CO which I assumed could run at 4ghz but after about a year of fighting with it could never really get it to behave properly at 4ghz with any manner of config. However at 3.914 it took me a day to get it rock solid stable with absolutely minimized voltages. Point is: don't assume. You may have a bad ocing sample. You may have a great ocing sample. It's up to you to figure out where on the curve your chip lies.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Help overclocking Gigabyte EP45-DS3R + E8400

    Yeah I second that, I too have a C0 and it was a dissapointing chip. You have an E0, so with tweaking you should get there, but you really have to change everything one-by-one.
    Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3R
    CPU: E8400 C0
    Memory: Team Xtreem Dark PC2 8500 DDR2 1066MHz CL5 (2*2GB)
    GPU: XFX GTX280
    Sound: Xonar HDAV Deluxe
    HDD's: WD VelociRaptor, WD Blue AAKS, WD Blue 2500BB
    PSU: Corsair HX620
    Case: Sharkoon Rebel12 Value
    CPU Cooler: Xigmatek Achilles S1284C
    Fans: Intake & Extract Top: Sharkoon 140MM 5v mod, Intake Bottom Opposite HDD's: Scythe 120mm Low RPM Drive Bay
    HDD's In 5.25 bay held in 2x Nexus DoubleTwins
    Disc Drives: Blu Ray/HDDVD LG GGCH20L, Pioneer DVR-216DBK
    Monitor: Samsung LE40M86B
    Receiver: Harman Kardon AVR255
    Speaker System: Q Accoustics 5.1i System

    Natalya Simonova: Do you destroy every vehicle you get into?
    James Bond: Standard operating procedure. Boys with toys.
    Goldeneye

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
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    Default Re: Help overclocking Gigabyte EP45-DS3R + E8400

    Sorry for the late reply. I 'think' things are pretty stable now. I have an E0 E8400. I verified that in CPU-Z.

    Some things I came across:
    CPU Vcore….……….........................: 1.325V
    CPU Termination…..... 1.200V*.......: AUTO 1.200V <- I tried hardcoding 1.20 but oc failed so I left at AUTO which shows 1.20
    CPU PLL…………………....1.500V*.......: AUTO 1.500V <- I tried hardcoding 1.50 but oc failed so I left at AUTO which shows 1.50

    I noticed some settings are missing in my BIOS (F10). i.e. Loadline Calibration. I do not know if it is enabled/disabled.

    Do these timings look ok?
    Advanced Timing Control
    tRRD...........................................4
    tWTR..........................................4
    tWR............................................5
    tRFC...........................................62
    tRTP...........................................4

    ICH Core…………...……1.100V............: I do not see in BIOS ???

    I tried CRTL-F1 to show advanced settings in BIOS on main menu and sub menu but no good. Any ideas?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    28

    Default Re: Help overclocking Gigabyte EP45-DS3R + E8400

    I have an E8400 (c0) on one of these boards, that previously resided on an EP35-DS4. I overclocked mine to 4ghz on the DS4, but it took a bit of work and a lot of juice to do it. This proc didnt like going past about 3.8 without significant tweaking. This EP45-DS3R has a lot more settings to tweak in BIOS, but I havent attempted pushing the proc on this board. On the last board, I eventually settled on 3.6ghz for a 24/7 overclock and carried forward the same on this board. You listed 3.6 as the low side of your target which is why I made this post.

    The E8400's, at least mine, will do 400mhz bus for 3.6ghz just like it was stock, totally rock stable. I simply locked the PCI-E bus, upped the FSB to 400, Set the DDR-2 to 4-4-4-12 @400mhz, manually set the vcore @ default (auto raises the voltage with overclock automaticly, and does it way too much). Next up was putting it through the rounds of stress testing to find the right voltage. Dropped the vcore incrementally till it failed overnight runs, then bumped it back up a couple notches, then did the same with the DDR2 voltage till it failed memtest and bumped it up a couple notches. End result is an undervolted but 20% overclocked system running 1:1 with the ram at good timings, running cool as a cucumber,and very easily done.

    Just seemed like a much better way to go for 24/7 operation since my particular CPU's wall isnt too far beyond that where you need to really start pushing the power and doing a ton of fine tweaking to keep going. Just an idea to throw out there for a good balance of having a decent overclock, while not pushing things too hard and worrying about power/heat/etc..

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: Help overclocking Gigabyte EP45-DS3R + E8400

    I made some system upgrades - switched everything over to an Antec 900 with much better airflow + cooling. I also replaced my 600 watt PSU with a Corsair 1000W PSU. I was able to push the FSB to 456 and now I am running 4.1Ghz. I am running p95 and if I get any error I will use memtest and try inching it up some more. I have not increased the Vcore from 1.325 which is a good thing. Any other suggestions?

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