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Thread: Heat challenge

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Queen Creek, AZ

    Default Heat challenge

    My newest issue. How to get maximum power without burning the place down or running out of electricity

    In my sig you see my system. A major issue is ambient temperature. I have to run the house between 79F and 80F all summer, even at 25F to 35F cooler than outdoors. Yes, I'm in the desert...Sonora to be exact. Were that I could afford to run the air at 72 or less but until they give away electricity, ain't gonna happen. Have my rig on the floor on a old stereo shelf so it sits off the carpet and no fan in or out is blocked. Its the old hot air rises thing. The only thing around it is me and one leg of my computer table so it gets air from all sides. I do have a fan that sort of hits it...more for me. Now I'm starting to screw up my sleeping by working on the system in the middle of the night when the temp gets down into the high 60's, low 70's. It may be hot during the day, but it chills right down with the sunset, at least for another month or so when even at midnight it will be 100F.

    I have proven to my satisfaction that my beast will do 3.6GHz with no problem but even at idle it's hotter than...well you get the idea. Right now running at 3.4GHz and the coolest core is 45C at idle. My 140mm optional fan arrived today so tomorrow will be adding that.

    So, am good with 3.4GHz. Now are there any tricks to help it use less resources and cool it down? I have, what is it... EIST? turned on as well as that C1E (doing this from memory). Also happy to use the Dynamic Energy Saver from Gigabyte. My issue is when my app needs the juice, it wants it now, like real fast. When the app is goofing off, then the system is free to cycle down.

    Am looking for tricks, settings and anything else that would help. Fans are better for people as sweat evaporates giving a cooling effect. Not so much for hardware..yes there is a fair amount but cannot install a tornado in my room. Any voltages I should especially look at? Any water systems under $200? I am really looking over the Cooler Master V10. The engineering makes sense. Cost would be worth it if it works. I've read all the reviews and as usual there is little consensus. The floor is open away!

    Thanks in advance for any and all ideas.

  2. #2
    profJim's Avatar
    profJim is online now Chief Munchkin + moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Tacoma, WA. [USA]

    Talking Re: Heat challenge

    1) There's a heated debate (pun intended) about the the benefits of positive versus negative air flow into/out of a computer case. You can try different setups where you have more air blowing into your case versus more air exhausted from your case to see if one setup is better than the other.

    2) Buy higher speed 200mm fans for more airflow and speed, cost $18 - $30 each.

    3) Buy additional 140mm higher speed fans for more air flow, cost $10 - $20 each.

    4) Use a $10 - $15 120 volt A.C. 10" - 12" fan to blow additional air into the front or side panel of your case. This is good for a couple of degrees F.

    5) Put your complete case inside a used college dorm room sized refrigerator. This is the "coolest" solution.

    6) Spend your summers in the western (coastal) side of the Cascade mountains in the Pacific Northwest, where the temperatures are in the 70's or 80's for all but three or four days in the summer.

    7) Upgrade your cpu heatsink/fan to a top tier solution, such as the TRUE heatsink with a Noctua fan.
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  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Queen Creek, AZ

    Default Re: Heat challenge

    1. Have thought about that case air flow. Currently pushing nearly equal air in to air out. Physics... does it apply to computers?... would tell me the exhaust fans are where they should be (top/back), input front down and unrestricted flow over cooling surfaces is ideal. Now the other side, if you push air too fast it doesn't stay long enough to pick up heat...going out on debatable limb there.

    200mm fans? Can't find any but what Cooler master makes. I moved the 200mm from the top of the case to the windowed side and replaced with 2 120mm fans from old Antec 900. They are pushing some serious air (and heat). Maybe get rid of both 200mm fans and go high CFM/low noise 120mm quality fans? Suggestions on make/model? One thing about this case, you have a large number of fan size/placement options and wires are nearly invisible, another virtue of this case. Do I want to give up sound for CFM? Dang that Antec was noisy.

    2. Am using the largest fans designed for the case...can replace with high grade quiet fans? Oxymoron? Adding the optional 140mm fan to the bottom which allows tip to positive/negative case pressure. Since the tip wouldn't be of a great magnitude, might work.

    3.Thermaltake CL-W0121 2U Drive Bay Water Cooling System? Concern is CPU is cool everything else boils. Maybe not. The price is in the ballpark for me.

    4. Another requirement. Any mods inside the case are open for discussion, way.

    5. Change address? It will be a couple years yet but either the south central California area near Sequoia National Park or Hawaii (bet is Hawaii). Had a timeshare in Hawaii before the divorce...didn't get it...bummer...lesson: you get what you pay your lawyer. I love the PNW but the rain and clouds is cause for massive depression. SF would be OK. Lived there, love the temps, didn't mind the constant wind, but when it rained oh my. An then there's the BIG ONE. Think any HDD's will crash?

    6. Am very much leaning toward starting with better fans all around the case followed by water on the CPU. An air solution just isn't going to do the job IMO.

    7. Not hiding the case in a fridge...sorry it is my humble showcase.

    These are my initial reactions to profJim for which I am deeply appreciative. Other ideas? Feel free to refute my assertions.
    Last edited by OldGeek; 06-13-2009 at 08:12 PM. Reason: more info

  4. #4

    Default Re: Heat challenge

    Well, the difference between 72F and 80F is only about 5C. Does it really make that much difference in your system temperatures?
    QX9650 batch L739A761/ GA-EP45-UD3P/ Kingston KHX9200 4x1G

  5. #5

    Default Re: Heat challenge

    buy some 3.5 to 5.25 bay adadpter frames and move your HDDs to the 5.25 bays, that will let the front fan pull unrestricted air in.

    Although, looking at your case, it looks like it has plenty of air flow. And like gampamu said, you aren't going to reap much benefit from more air.

    7. Not hiding the case in a fridge...sorry it is my humble showcase
    There are hundreds of posts about this. It wouldn't work anyway. A fridge can not keep a CPU cool. Now a walk in cooler could....

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex St. John
    Consider for a moment that what we think of as “intelligence” is the byproduct of a computing architecture that depends on massive parallelism to interact with the world in real time without stalling for progress bars. If our ancestors’ brains had depended on running Vista on current dual-core processors for their survival, they would have been eaten by bears.

    Best Quote Ever...
    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho101
    Obey the one and only rule without question when you overclock.... don't cause a fire. Fires are hot and burny... not good.
    Intel E8400 EO@445x9--Gigabyte EP45-UD3P v1.1 ~ F9--EVGA 9800GT @ 700/1750/1100--8GB Gskill 1066

  6. #6
    kick's Avatar
    kick is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Europe,the wild wild west.

    Default Re: Heat challenge

    Approx 26C 80F isnt amazingly warm ambient /room temp.
    It feels warm sure .but ive done full testing at 25C on my sig settings and the pc works ok.
    Admittedly I wouldnt like it everyday or the pc either.Comfy room temp for most people is supposed to be 18-23C 65-74F approx.

    Venturi effect )( has been experimented with but you need a lot of "sucking" and a v large volume of air to get the cooling effect .
    Most fan frames have the )( x section anyway.

    Its the immediacy of water cooling on the hot spot that makes it so usefull,but unless you cool the "refrigerant" water or whatever it is resevoir your still bound by the room temp.

    I think there are some venturi "blow systems" using like a 25" fan and suitable ducting but needing a streamlined case of small interior dimensions and almost no back panel just a large hole for exhaust.

    Phase cooling etc i dont like the idea of condensation and then heat on vapour laden air :0

    I think your room temps arent that extreme ,pc cases are just boxes really, and there is also the consideration of how much "crud" is in the air.
    My pc has no open "crud" slots, no optical disc slots(removable cover),floppy slots or unfiltered front/underneath ventilation slots.
    rear/top ventilation is unfiltered for 3X 80 mm fans and the psu exit obviously :0.Unused mbrd input sockets at the rear are all blanked off with insulating tape as are any "holes" at the rear which dont have a fan blowing out thru them.
    I use either the mbrd packing sponge or cooker hood ventilation fibre to filter the incoming air.

    Yeh that also increases case interior temps but its preferable to having to clean the pc fan blades etc every week.
    Perhaps you have very good a/c that changes n filters the air regularly.
    If so you might be able to run the pc "cover off" and drop 6-10F.

    Edit : My sig with the temperatures below..I didnt change the room temp recently Ive been using that sig for a couple of weeks now(you could add 1-2C if I was running at 500 fsb)
    Situation: room temp right now is 22C .testing using 25 ambient average was done over a couple of v warm days with room temp on 2 different close to the pc one further away reading between 24-27C.
    Room is in the attic area with heat insulation material in the even if the outside temp is like 23-24 the room heats up like a .. well gets v hot ;0
    Idle temps average over 4 cores right now =41C
    Last edited by kick; 06-14-2009 at 06:49 AM.
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    hoping to upgrade to

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Queen Creek, AZ

    Default Re: Heat challenge

    Very insightful all. I liked the Thermaltake UNTIL I noticed that there was no real effort to vent the hot air outside of the case. Big minus.

    As to moving the HDDs, don't see the need to move them, this case has PLENTY of room between drives, one of the considerations for its purchase. All the fans, save the exhaust have dust filters of which I am ambivalent. There is SO much dust in the desert that they are prone to a constant need for cleaning. Getting good fans and compressed air cans might serve me better. Why am I so anal about the temps? My system runs an average of 17 hours a day 7 days a week. Due to my life circumstances, my computer takes all my time.

    I do see an opportunity for a SSD of 32GB for my Flight Simulator. It is at least 80% reading and perhaps higher. Might save a degree or two on temps there.

    Also think the EIST function is good for a degree maybe two. No need for the 3.4 or 3.6GHz when I don't need it. However, when I need it, I really need it.

    A liquid self contained cooler that has caught my eye and wallet is the CoolIT Domino A.L.C. It may not do as much as the better air coolers, but it does blast the heated air out the back 120mm fan ergo out of the case, add three fan settings...the medium seems good and quiet. I like that and the ridiculous price of $80. Am not wild about the pre-applied thermal compound...which I know can be removed and replaced with an Arctic something...I've used Silver for years. Mixed reviews on the ceramic Arctic or so I've read. Maybe I'm uneducated on the proper type based on its planned use.

    I believe 5C is 5C so with good air flow via powerful, relatively quiet fans and some water on the CPU might be the ticket. Yes, I do some folding@home so do occasionally crank all the cores. Have to think about the dust filters. Again what would you recommend for good fans? Say from $15 to $30?

    Do want to finish this and get back to serious mucking with operating systems, a bit of C code and flight simulator all while mastering Windows 7..never used Vista, instead XP Pro x32 and x64.

    Final thoughts. I have the core of a plan, looking for areas overlooked.

    To badly paraphrase the late Senator Everett Dirksen...a billion here and a billion there and pretty soon you're talking real money. That's how I feel about each degree that I can remove from my system.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    J'Habite En Angleterre

    Default Re: Heat challenge

    The CoolIt Domino sucks monkey b*lls big time. Many many air coolers beat it, and it's extremelt noisy on high. There's no way of changing the fan either. One review site went through three review samples because the barbs on the radiator, where the pipes connect kept snapping, no matter how gentle they were with it.

    If you can fit two 120mm fans on the top of your case, you have room to mount a radiator there instead. Go for a water cooling kit, not an all in one jobbie. You'll save up to $100, but you'll be disappointed. A quality 240 rad, some 3/8" or 1/2" piping depending on what fittings are on the components, a decent pump (**Hi flow**), block and res can be had for $300 or so. Swiftech make some nice kit. Black Ice radiators are great too. If you want a little silence get a radiator with a less dense fin array, they react better to lower CFM fans.

    Save any money you were going to spend on fans and put it towards the water cooling. As soon as you fit it, you'll be eliminating onw of the major sources of heat from the case.

    Water cooling is limited by air temps to some degree, but water has a much higher affinity for absorbing and giving up heat than air does. In the desert, I'm sure a water cooled car would be pretty much ok. I'd bet if you drove an air cooled Porche arround for a bit it'd soon start to have problems.

    Edit** A cheap ish all in one that actually works would be something like but if you have the cash, going for a high flow pump and seoperate res, with a custom block will work best.
    Last edited by Psycho101; 06-15-2009 at 12:28 AM.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Heat challenge

    I agree with Psycho101 regarding the quality and performance of the CoolIt Domino. High end air cooler such as the TRUE would be a better choice if better CPU cooling is what you are after. As I said earlier, the difference between 72F and 80F is only about 5C. How high are your temps at 80F increase in ambient?
    QX9650 batch L739A761/ GA-EP45-UD3P/ Kingston KHX9200 4x1G

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Queen Creek, AZ

    Default Re: Heat challenge

    We'll end it there. Again, no consensus on the quality or ability of the Domino in the that I mean review sites....except several here have a pretty strong adversion to the noted. Although not fond of the idea of any of a monkey's anatomy, especially that alluded to, $80 is a worthwhile gamble. I looked, studied over and over every single review of the unit.

    I like to think things through and perhaps my thoughts suck or by shear luck I'm a little right on occasion. In this case, the Domino serves two purposes. One, at the medium setting, it changes fan speed based on need and the noise is within reason. Two, it throws the heat captured straight out of the case, unlike the Thermaltake, which was my first choice. I am not in the $300 to $400+ category. I don't have the money. So the only thing I have is the ability to compromise. If the unit throws the heat out of the case, then at the least the heat load on the other motherboard components will be the same or less than a good air unit. Am going to use EIST so maybe that will help. The air cooler I've got now was VERY highly rated depending on who you read or listen to. But the temps are so-so at best, even the top of the line air units leave the removed CPU heat in the case, albeit for a fairly short time if the case if properly ventilated. The only way I'll know is to give it a spin. If the temps approach the best air units then that is enough. All reviews made it clear that a 4.0GHz OC is out of the range of this unit. 3.4GHz is as high as I'm going given my ambient heat, not to mention my practical needs. 3.4 on a 2.4? That'll work.

    The barbs on the radiator do give me concern. Can't think why they would fail if they are not being messed with. there is no assembly after all except maybe as the tubes are manipulated as the heat exchanger is attached. Perhaps all liquid units should come with a catch tray fixture thus sparing the rig from coolant damage should a leak occur. Other pros are an audible alarm if something is wrong and at least some information is available from the side display.

    I apologize for asking for input and turning around and rejecting or at least showing some skepticism. There are no absolutes. Look at Newton vs. Einstein. It just depends on where you are at the time. What is gospel one moment is a history lesson the next. The only absolute here is that $300 to $400 would get me where I REALLY want to be. My thought was to mount the radiator on the top where the two 120mm fans are now. But that is the expensive route. Have even read where that has issues too. I'm a black and white person in a grey world.

    Thanks for everyone's input and I'll let you know just how full of sh*t and stupid I was to take this path. I'll be first to admit here that I was dead wrong or just maybe it meets my needs and works for me.

    Sucking any monkey bits is still out.
    Last edited by OldGeek; 06-15-2009 at 02:00 PM.

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