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Thread: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte mb)




  1. #11
    genegold is offline Member
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    Quote Originally Posted by Lsdmeasap View Post
    Well, it is a guess kind of I suppose, but an educated one for sure.

    I would imagine the reason to be just what you had explained, that the keyboard was not made to be used with today's boards thus it is showing incompatibility issues.
    But the adapters are made to bridge the gap, which is not to say that each and everyone does, or that necessarily any one does with this particular mb and keyboard.

    If the IBM is taking too much current and overheating a component on the mb, then the high current draw while its still warm is making the mb tell the PSU that it's not safe to power up. Since switching USB banks gets around the problem, does that mean the banks are isolated from each other, at least relative to this issue? Someone with expertise in these matters is needed.
    Last edited by genegold; 06-24-2009 at 01:19 AM.

  2. #12
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    Lsdmeasap is offline GIGABYTE Guru
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    You are correct, I am for sure not qualified to give you a real electrical answer on this. I will PM our resident electrical guru (VorLonUK) and see if he will come chime in on this to offer you a better answer on things

  3. #13
    genegold is offline Member
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    Quote Originally Posted by Lsdmeasap View Post
    You are correct, I am for sure not qualified to give you a real electrical answer on this. I will PM our resident electrical guru (VorLonUK) and see if he will come chime in on this to offer you a better answer on things
    Look forward to his thoughts.

    I should add that an externally powered USB Hub had no effect on this, presumably because the problem is showing at the USB connection to the computer.
    Last edited by genegold; 06-24-2009 at 02:20 AM.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    It sounds to me like the IBM keyboard is either drawing too much current for the adapter and/or the motherboards USB ports. Or through a combination of the above the adapter is sending corrupt Data via the USB Bus.

    Without knowing what the max current draw is of the IBM keyboard in question and this article you linked too:- Model M keyboard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia states:-
    Sometimes it may be problematic to get them to communicate properly with a modern computer. A PS/2 to USB adapter would be necessary for computers without PS/2 ports, and the AT Model Ms additionally require an AT to PS/2 adapter. Some PS/2 to USB adapters are unreliable because the Model M tends to draw more power than some adapters expect. In response to these complaints, Unicomp added USB models to their lineup
    So as per my comments above, either the adapter is "falling over" due to the high current draw of this keyboard and or it could be exceeding (keyboard and adapter combination or even have a fault) the USB 2.0 current standard of a maximum of 500ma
    Universal Serial Bus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Either which way, i am slightly baffled why you wish to use a 20 year old keyboard that has been documentated as being troublesome when used with modern hardware and via an adapter.
    Whilst it might be interesting to know what is specifically causing the "fault", the combination of a keyboard that wasn't designed for USB, using an adapter per-se, using an adapter with an adapter unfriendly keyboard makes it more likely that you've actually created a problem, rather than unexpectedly experiencing a fault.
    Last edited by VorLonUK; 06-24-2009 at 02:55 AM.
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  5. #15
    genegold is offline Member
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    [QUOTE=VorLonUK;303670
    Either which way, i am slightly baffled why you wish to use a 20 year old keyboard that has been documentated as being troublesome when used with modern hardware and via an adapter.[/QUOTE]

    Thanks for your reply.

    From the standpoint of pure typing (and for some, gaming), the IBM Model M is widely considered the best keyboard ever made.* I recall mourning its passing in terms of what was available to me at work, where I did all my computing until I got my first computer in the late '90s. By the that time, they seemed gone and I never gave it a thought. Just realized recently they could be had for a relative song (this one $20 clean), and there's plenty of information out there that with active adapters they can typically be made to work with modern motherboards. Typically. There are a few more adapters to check out before giving up.

    * From the standpoint of function, the Northgate Omni line was about the best, with function keys down the left side, but they are expensive.

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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    Quote Originally Posted by genegold View Post
    Thanks for your reply.

    From the standpoint of pure typing (and for some, gaming), the IBM Model M is widely considered the best keyboard ever made.* I recall mourning its passing in terms of what was available to me at work, where I did all my computing until I got my first computer in the late '90s. By the that time, they seemed gone and I never gave it a thought. Just realized recently they could be had for a relative song (this one $20 clean), and there's plenty of information out there that with active adapters they can typically be made to work with modern motherboards. Typically. There are a few more adapters to check out before giving up.

    * From the standpoint of function, the Northgate Omni line was about the best, with function keys down the left side, but they are expensive.
    There seems to be a lot of info in regard to these older keyboards on modern Pc's on the net.
    I wonder if it might be worth you seeing if you can contact one of the companies who manufacturers the more upmarket adapters (ie those that are not just passive) to see if they can give any compatibility assurances.

    Other than current draw, there may be some IBM specifics that need catering for which might be achieved through a USB to PS2 type "bridge"
    I know as with most of these type of accessories (adapters) you can only get limited info, but it might be worth sending off a few emails - you might get some feedback.
    GA-P35C-DS3R Rev2.0 F11 bios, E8200 (@3.0Ghz), OCZ DDR3 PC3-10666 Reaper 4GB (@1200Mhz), Xonar D1, 8800GTS 512, Corsair HX520 (Single 12volt line, Max 40A), WDC 3200aaks/5000aaks in AHCI mode, Vista 64 Premium.

  7. #17
    genegold is offline Member
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    Quote Originally Posted by VorLonUK View Post
    There seems to be a lot of info in regard to these older keyboards on modern Pc's on the net.
    I wonder if it might be worth you seeing if you can contact one of the companies who manufacturers the more upmarket adapters (ie those that are not just passive) to see if they can give any compatibility assurances.

    Other than current draw, there may be some IBM specifics that need catering for which might be achieved through a USB to PS2 type "bridge"
    I know as with most of these type of accessories (adapters) you can only get limited info, but it might be worth sending off a few emails - you might get some feedback.
    I have been in contact with the keyboard users at geekhack.com and, frankly, they don't buy your explanation. Their point is that there are lots of people (hundreds, a few thousands?) using this very model keyboard (and older) + one of the two kinds of adapters I have, with more recent computer setups and things are going fine. There's a point there, especially given the USB behavior that occurs when it won't start. I spoke with Corsair's tech about it, and they are quite willing to RMA my PSU, which is new - but he also thought the most likely culprit is the motherboard; the USB ports are powered off the 5v rail and if they're working in one place, it's not likely to be failing because of the PSU if there's failure in another. His suggested first checking the mb for a ground somewhere. I pulled the mb and put it on a piece of cardboard, but couldn't get it to fire up. So I just switched cases and that's where I am now, but the same thing happens.

    Your idea of contacting Unicomp for their advice is a good one (they sell original Model M boards and the same adapter, alone with their redone kb version). And I have ordered an adapter from Monoprice, one that also has a very good record. Will have to see how this turns out. I have a few days left to exchange motherboards with Newegg.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    I can't see how it can be a PSU fault unless the 5volt line is wildly off anyway.
    The USB ports are limited to supplying a fraction of the current normally available on even the weakest of PSU's.

    I'd be very surprised if there was a fault with your Motherboard or PSU and I'm trying to think what logic to that you are employing here.

    Have you tried a usb mouse and keyboard? If so have you experienced any problems whatsoever?
    It seems to me you are trying an old keyboard that was designed before USB was even on the scene. Because of that compatability isn't even taking into account, whereas some modern chip/sets used for keyboards these days can work properly with either PS2 or USB. The Electronics IBM used at the time made no allowances for anything other than a PS2 input/setup.

    I am baffled as to why you even have the PSU and/or motherboard under the slightest suspicion when you are using hardware that was designed for another era. It's not as though it's a new product that's been designed to work with older hardware.

    Things I would try,
    1) Other USB devices, mainly USB keyboards.
    2) Ibm keyboard on motherboard with dedicated PS2 connector.
    3) Measure USB 5 volt supply - to make sure it is within spec ie 4.75v- 5.25v
    4) Consider contacting Belkin re this product:- http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProdu...duct_Id=156482
    5) Technical reasons ie IBM compatability issues:- http://www.geocities.com/jszybowski/keyboard/

    Edit:-
    Reading your posts again, it seems you are using a USB keyboard with an adapter and also a PS2 keyboard with an adapter, yet your motherboard supports both PS2 and USB. I can understand you having issues with the IBM keyboard even using the correct connection (ie PS2), but I can't see why you'd have a problem with the USB keyboard connected to a USB connection.

    Unless I've missed it, you don't say why you are using adapters?
    Last edited by VorLonUK; 06-24-2009 at 09:06 PM.
    GA-P35C-DS3R Rev2.0 F11 bios, E8200 (@3.0Ghz), OCZ DDR3 PC3-10666 Reaper 4GB (@1200Mhz), Xonar D1, 8800GTS 512, Corsair HX520 (Single 12volt line, Max 40A), WDC 3200aaks/5000aaks in AHCI mode, Vista 64 Premium.

  9. #19
    genegold is offline Member
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    Quote Originally Posted by VorLonUK View Post
    I can't see how it can be a PSU fault unless the 5volt line is wildly off anyway.
    The USB ports are limited to supplying a fraction of the current normally available on even the weakest of PSU's.

    I'd be very surprised if there was a fault with your Motherboard or PSU and I'm trying to think what logic to that you are employing here.

    Edit:-
    Reading your posts again, it seems you are using a USB keyboard with an adapter and also a PS2 keyboard with an adapter, yet your motherboard supports both PS2 and USB. I can understand you having issues with the IBM keyboard even using the correct connection (ie PS2), but I can't see why you'd have a problem with the USB keyboard connected to a USB connection.

    Unless I've missed it, you don't say why you are using adapters?
    The reason for adapters is explained better than I can at ps/2 to USB adapter converter for keyboards and at IBM PS2 Keyboard Modification (he has the same keyboard; see near bottom about adapters - the "blue cube" adapter I have is the same as clickykeyboards sells for a lot more).

    Hopefully, the adapter discussion clarifies my logic a bit. As to why this old keyboard, do a search on "best keyboard for typists" or something like that. Name me a modern keyboard that compares from the standpoint of typing and that is under $150 or so, if there are any at any price.

    Thanks.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    Name me a modern keyboard that compares from the standpoint of typing and that is under $150 or so, if there are any at any price.
    This is the type of argument I have heard Hifi Enthusiasts (for example) go on about for years, ie x is better than y - so everyone in the know has to have one.
    In reality though, the best Keyboard is the keyboard an individual is most comfortable with. If that is in terms of physical comfort, efficiency in typing or both is usually the main criteria.
    Quality of build is another factor, but I wouldn't say the main factor these days.

    Personally I wouldn't spend a load of cash on a new motherboard, cpu and associated components and then connect up a keyboard that came from a past technical era. Let alone consider blaming the new hardware for a keyboard issue when that keyboard was never designed to work with it.

    If your new setup (Motherboard, CPU, components etc) works perfectly well with modern day peripherals, then I believe you are just wasting your time (and everyone elses) if you start RMA-ing items.
    Last edited by VorLonUK; 06-25-2009 at 01:42 AM.
    GA-P35C-DS3R Rev2.0 F11 bios, E8200 (@3.0Ghz), OCZ DDR3 PC3-10666 Reaper 4GB (@1200Mhz), Xonar D1, 8800GTS 512, Corsair HX520 (Single 12volt line, Max 40A), WDC 3200aaks/5000aaks in AHCI mode, Vista 64 Premium.

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