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Thread: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte mb)




  1. #21
    genegold is offline Member
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    Quote Originally Posted by VorLonUK View Post
    This is the type of argument I have heard Hifi Enthusiasts (for example) go on about for years, ie x is better than y - so everyone in the know has to have one.
    In reality though, the best Keyboard is the keyboard an individual is most comfortable with. If that is in terms of physical comfort, efficiency in typing or both is usually the main criteria.
    Quality of build is another factor, but I wouldn't say the main factor these days.

    Personally I wouldn't spend a load of cash on a new motherboard, cpu and associated components and then connect up a keyboard that came from a past technical era. Let alone consider blaming the new hardware for a keyboard issue when that keyboard was never designed to work with it.

    If your new setup (Motherboard, CPU, components etc) works perfectly well with modern day peripherals, then I believe you are just wasting your time (and everyone elses) if you start RMA-ing items.

    I very much value when people such as yourself spend a bit of time answering questions or looking at problems readers pose. That is why I find it very disconcerting when in spite of my having mentioned the use of an adapter with the IBM keyboard many times in the thread, you didn't even notice it until having posted a few times and then only as an afterthought. When in reply I pointed you to a couple of technical explanations for the adapters, you merely repeat the mantra, "old keyboard - bad" and toss in a red herring ("everyone has to have one"). If you don't have the time or want to participate, fine. Perhaps, someone else will or I'll find a resolution another way.

    Btw, the IBM Model M is reknown for being virtually indestructible.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    It's highly doubtful you'll find out why there is an issue. Unless you have an electronics expert examine circuit diagrams of oth board an d keyboard, plus connectors, plus taking into account the way the BIOS is programmed to interpret these electronic signals.

    I know you haven't received an answer that explains 100% concrete as to why, but Lsdmeasap's educated guess is a valid one. You're using 1988 tech on a 2008-2009 motherboard, which the keyboard was never tested on (obviously) during construction. The Mobo equally would not be tested with such old equipment.

    On top of those two issues, you're forced (due to PS2 compatibility issues) to use a USB adaptor which, again was not custom designed or tested to marry to your existing keyboard and mobo combination. I'm not really surprised there are some sort of issues being experienced.

    There are settings in the BIOS for USB Keyboard and USB Mouse. Try them enabled and disabled, it may help.

    I'm sure the keyboard is very pleasant to use, and probably much better in construction than the 2.50 Chineese jobbies you can pick up now. However your statment that lots of people use them.... not sure if I agree. There may be alot of people using them, but on systems in workplaces etc which have never needed to upgrade the tech, and a minority of users who don't want to let go of their tech because they like it so much (up to them) as it still serves its purpose. I could gurantee that 99.999% of the people who own your particular board are using a keyboard manufactured after 1995.

    Good luck, and I hope you find a solution, even if it means taking a multi metre to the electronics and seeing what's going on.
    Last edited by Psycho101; 06-25-2009 at 02:51 AM.
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    Quote Originally Posted by genegold View Post
    I very much value when people such as yourself spend a bit of time answering questions or looking at problems readers pose. That is why I find it very disconcerting when in spite of my having mentioned the use of an adapter with the IBM keyboard many times in the thread, you didn't even notice it until having posted a few times and then only as an afterthought. When in reply I pointed you to a couple of technical explanations for the adapters, you merely repeat the mantra, "old keyboard - bad" and toss in a red herring ("everyone has to have one"). If you don't have the time or want to participate, fine. Perhaps, someone else will or I'll find a resolution another way.

    Btw, the IBM Model M is reknown for being virtually indestructible.
    I did realise you were using an adapter from the outset, but what added confusion to the mix, was you using a second keyboard too ie a USB keyboard with a USB to PS2 adapter.
    I'm not sure why you threw this into the debate, especially when that keyboard should work usb to usb.

    I fully understand about some of the possible technical differences between your PS2 IBM keyboard and that of your motherboards PS2 connection. I understand too, that by using effectively a "bridge" chip in an active adapter, you might be able to interface your IBM keyboard with your motherboard even if you weren't taking what my seem the prefered route ie PS2 to PS2.

    Just so you know, i started out as a bench engineer working to (obviously) component level including LSI from the early eighties. Working mainly on HiFi and Video for around 15 years. It wasn't just a job, but part of a general interest I have had in electronics for the last 35 years. So yes i do understand your frustration and Yes i would love to give you a definitive answer. The one thing I can say with reasonable certainty when it comes to this topic, is that you won't find a definitive answer, hence I suggested Belkin and the Belkin product as a more likely source of technical information regarding compatibility.

    Factors you would need to know, before making a judgement on the problem:-

    1) Ibm Keyboard M design, schematic diagram and intended electronic working (ie timings, voltage levels etc)
    2) Possibility of those being workable with a passive PS2 to USB adapter, ie just a gender changer.
    ** As we've established that is highly unlikely**
    3) PS2 to USB adapter design ie finding what "bridge" (I use the term bridge very loosely) caters more readily for the IBM circuitry.
    4) Find a collection of active adapters that don't work correctly with the IBM keyboard.
    5) Confirm that X aspect, ie voltage level, waveform shape, timing is correctly interpreted by Y chip.
    6) Note what causes Non working adapters not to function correctly.

    However, at the end of the day, you did suggest in your posts about perhaps you had a faulty PSU or Motherboard. I have asked in some posts, had you checked your new setup with a modern day keyboard and if you had, did you experience any problems. That would be the ideal way of checking the status of your new hardware, not the other way around.

    I still strongly recommend that you attempt to contact a technical representative from one of the companies that produces these active adapters. I suggested Belkin, not because I particularly favour them, but simply because they are a recognised company that could possibly give you the technical feedback you are looking for.
    Probably as no doubt you are aware many of these adapters will be sold under different names but all essentially be the same construction (especially some of the cheap ones), where you'll likely not get any detailed technical info (if any at all).

    Because I have no access to an IBM keyboard nor adapters, nor have i researched adapter performance indepth electronically (as you'll no doubt find is the same for most people technical or not) - I still believe finding someone who has ie Belkin is the best and only realistic route to take, especially if you want your specific questions answered.
    If it were a current technology problem, sourcing the info and/or experimenting yourself would be far easier.

    But let's not forget that information is sketchy because the two products you are attempting to interface together, where never designed with either in mind. So finding a definitive answer on a public forum, when not even the manufacturers took the issue into account, is quite a tall order.
    Last edited by VorLonUK; 06-25-2009 at 03:39 AM.
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  4. #24
    genegold is offline Member
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    A new wrinkle. I have a master console. That ~10 sec. breaking point for restart on the same USB port vs. having to switch to another USB bank applies if I turn off the console power to the computer. If left on, then the computer powers right up on the same port at >10 secs. after shut down. I've tried up to 90 seconds. so far.

  5. #25
    genegold is offline Member
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    Quote Originally Posted by VorLonUK View Post
    ..I fully understand about some of the possible technical differences between your PS2 IBM keyboard and that of your motherboards PS2 connection. I understand too, that by using effectively a "bridge" chip in an active adapter, you might be able to interface your IBM keyboard with your motherboard even if you weren't taking what my seem the prefered route ie PS2 to PS2.

    ..The one thing I can say with reasonable certainty when it comes to this topic, is that you won't find a definitive answer, hence I suggested Belkin and the Belkin product as a more likely source of technical information regarding compatibility.
    VorLonUK,
    After the behavior described in my last post, I RMA'd the motherboard for replacement and then hooked up my three year old K8 board (MSI K8NGM2-FID). The IBM keyboard now works off both the PS/2 port and, with adapter, off the USB ports without any problem. That suggests to me either a bad Gigabyte motherboard or poor engineering. I'm hoping for the first.

  6. #26
    genegold is offline Member
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    Motherboard replacement arrived. Plug the IBM M keyboard directly into the PS/2 keyboard port and it works fine, computer cold. Try starting ~30 seconds after shutdown and computer won't power up. Wait 25 minutes, as I just did, and it starts fine, as if cold. Maybe I'm all off, but since the keyboard worked with a three year old K8 board no problem, wouldn't that rule out the PSU and raise a question of motherboard design/testing (hardware, BIOS, ..?)?

    The key hardware is:
    - Gigabyte GA-MA790X-UD4P
    - AMD Athlon 64 X2 7750 Kuma 2.7 GHz Dual Core Black Edition
    - Corsair VX450 PSU
    (all new)
    Last edited by genegold; 07-14-2009 at 05:55 AM.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    To be frank i'm still baffled as to why you RMA'd your motherboard. The "issue" (not fault) is down to incompatability for the reasons we discussed.

    I can't see the point in going over everything again as it really is pointless. Anything else added would just be speculation.
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  8. #28
    genegold is offline Member
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    Quote Originally Posted by VorLonUK View Post
    To be frank i'm still baffled as to why you RMA'd your motherboard. The "issue" (not fault) is down to incompatability for the reasons we discussed.

    I can't see the point in going over everything again as it really is pointless. Anything else added would just be speculation.
    Fair enough. Since no one else who uses a M keyboard has reported this problem, it's only logical to wonder about the motherboard and PSU. Since there were other odd things going on with this mb, I started there. PSU is next.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    This may be a variant or the same as the chip on your Motherboard that supports a PS2 Keyboard.
    ITE Tech. Inc.

    Comparing the details with other motherboards that use ITE chips (same family) may provide you with further info for comparison on what works and what doesn't.

    As for the PSU, from my experience that really is a long shot in this case, but of course nothing can be ruled out.

    If you had a choice between +5v and +5VSB with this board (ie a setting for wakeup features), which I don't believe you do, that again could* play a role. But then that's just more speculation.

    *(Then again it might be worth measuring your PSU's +5VSB to see if it's wildly off, although i doubt it. As per the 5V rail the 5VSB rail should be within +/- 5% tolerance ie between 4.75 - 5.25volts
    The VX450 has a 2.5amp capacity on the 5VSB line which should be ample and although more than many, not as high as some (3+ amps), then again it may not even play a role on this board anyway.)

    Edit:
    Out of interest have you tried experimenting with any of the settings in the Power Managment Setup of the bios? It's a long shot, but it might be worth altering some of the settings from their default settings, just simply to see if it alters any way the keyboard functions at bootup (hot or cold).
    Shown on page 51, section 2-7 of the PDF Manual.
    Last edited by VorLonUK; 07-14-2009 at 08:34 AM.
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  10. #30
    genegold is offline Member
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    Quote Originally Posted by VorLonUK View Post
    This may be a variant or the same as the chip on your Motherboard that supports a PS2 Keyboard.
    ITE Tech. Inc.

    Comparing the details with other motherboards that use ITE chips (same family) may provide you with further info for comparison on what works and what doesn't.

    As for the PSU, from my experience that really is a long shot in this case, but of course nothing can be ruled out.

    If you had a choice between +5v and +5VSB with this board (ie a setting for wakeup features), which I don't believe you do, that again could* play a role. But then that's just more speculation.

    *(Then again it might be worth measuring your PSU's +5VSB to see if it's wildly off, although i doubt it. As per the 5V rail the 5VSB rail should be within +/- 5% tolerance ie between 4.75 - 5.25volts
    The VX450 has a 2.5amp capacity on the 5VSB line which should be ample and although more than many, not as high as some (3+ amps), then again it may not even play a role on this board anyway.)

    Edit:
    Out of interest have you tried experimenting with any of the settings in the Power Managment Setup of the bios? It's a long shot, but it might be worth altering some of the settings from their default settings, just simply to see if it alters any way the keyboard functions at bootup (hot or cold).
    Shown on page 51, section 2-7 of the PDF Manual.
    Thanks, and I don't disagree with you about the PSU being a longshot. I'll follow up about the chip. The I/O chip for the K8 board (MSI K8nGM2-FID) is not listed in the manual.

    I don't think the Power Mgt settings could help because this is an issue that only shows itself when the power (mains) to the computer is turned from off to on, i.e., pre-BIOS, and then only when the machine is "hot" and the mains has been off for more than 5-10 seconds or so. Pretty odd.

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