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Thread: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte mb)




  1. #31
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    Quote Originally Posted by genegold View Post
    Thanks, and I don't disagree with you about the PSU being a longshot. I'll follow up about the chip. The I/O chip for the K8 board (MSI K8nGM2-FID) is not listed in the manual.

    I don't think the Power Mgt settings could help because this is an issue that only shows itself when the power (mains) to the computer is turned from off to on, i.e., pre-BIOS, and then only when the machine is "hot" and the mains has been off for more than 5-10 seconds or so. Pretty odd.
    Hence I said:-
    Out of interest have you tried experimenting with any of the settings in the Power Managment Setup of the bios?
    With "Experimenting" being the operative word!

    Have you tried a modern PS2 keyboard?

    The point here too, that may apply to this issue too, for example ATX revisions. When a new PSU ATX revision is released, often something is added and also something is taken away.
    A good example would be when between PSU revisions (can't remember the atx numbers of the top of my head) the power distribution shifted emphasis massively to the 12volt lines (away from the 5v & 3.3v lines)

    So whilst the 12 volt supply now needed far greater capacity, the 3.3 and 5 volt lines were reduced and did NOT remain the same.

    The same may be happening in regard to your prehistoric keyboard too. So where you cite your old K8 motherboard supporting the IBM keyboard, that may be simply because it was built to an older standard that bridged a different technical gap. ie it catered at the time of release for say up to 20 year old technolgy. Whereas now if that same logic is employed with your brand new GB 790 board, the IBM keyboard may no longer be supported, but on the plus side, newer hardware is.

    Also when we see USB 3.0 released, we may find some very early USB implementations not working correctly.
    Last edited by VorLonUK; 07-14-2009 at 11:11 PM.
    GA-P35C-DS3R Rev2.0 F11 bios, E8200 (@3.0Ghz), OCZ DDR3 PC3-10666 Reaper 4GB (@1200Mhz), Xonar D1, 8800GTS 512, Corsair HX520 (Single 12volt line, Max 40A), WDC 3200aaks/5000aaks in AHCI mode, Vista 64 Premium.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    Still wishing you luck in getting the keyboard working, although it seem sthat the options are running out.

    As far as PSU's go, from what I know and can remember from a long time ago, as VorLoUK said, rail configurations and the load they are required to be able to support have changed a lot over the last few revisions of the ATX standard.

    For example, between ATX 1.0 (2000) ATX 1.3 and 2.0 (both strangely introduced in the same year, 2003) and the current standard of ATX 2.3, the required power ratings for the 3.3V and 5V rail (combined) and the 12V rail have gone from 180W on each to 120W/265W (based on a 300W PSU and not meaning simultaneous load). The -5V rail was also made optional as of 1.3, and is no longer present in 99% of PSU's available. The rogue 1% are ancient designs sold cheaply; the kind that usually like blowing up when powering a modern system.

    The fact that you get the keyboard working from cold, but need to disconnect power for a while does point towards some sort of residual charge either contained within motherboard components or being supplied by the PSU itself. Whether this is an actual PSU fault or not is another matter. If this keyboard is the only component that has problems from a warm boot, and everything else works fine, then more blame is on the keyboard/converter. Everything else in the system seems perfectly happy.

    Akin to trying to fit twin Webber carbs to a modern engine using fuel injection; it may improve performance were it possible, but it's two different implementations of the same basic principle (regulating fuel and air mixture).

    Once again, fingers crossed for you getting it working. Have you had any feedback from fellow users of that same keyboard on specialist forums? You may just encounter one of those enigmatic geniuses who's suggestion(s) instantly solve the problem.
    Coolermaster CM 690 II advance Case
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  3. #33
    genegold is offline Member
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho101 View Post
    Still wishing you luck in getting the keyboard working, although it seem sthat the options are running out.

    As far as PSU's go, from what I know and can remember from a long time ago, as VorLoUK said, rail configurations and the load they are required to be able to support have changed a lot over the last few revisions of the ATX standard.

    For example, between ATX 1.0 (2000) ATX 1.3 and 2.0 (both strangely introduced in the same year, 2003) and the current standard of ATX 2.3, the required power ratings for the 3.3V and 5V rail (combined) and the 12V rail have gone from 180W on each to 120W/265W (based on a 300W PSU and not meaning simultaneous load). The -5V rail was also made optional as of 1.3, and is no longer present in 99% of PSU's available. The rogue 1% are ancient designs sold cheaply; the kind that usually like blowing up when powering a modern system.

    The fact that you get the keyboard working from cold, but need to disconnect power for a while does point towards some sort of residual charge either contained within motherboard components or being supplied by the PSU itself. Whether this is an actual PSU fault or not is another matter. If this keyboard is the only component that has problems from a warm boot, and everything else works fine, then more blame is on the keyboard/converter. Everything else in the system seems perfectly happy.

    Akin to trying to fit twin Webber carbs to a modern engine using fuel injection; it may improve performance were it possible, but it's two different implementations of the same basic principle (regulating fuel and air mixture).

    Once again, fingers crossed for you getting it working. Have you had any feedback from fellow users of that same keyboard on specialist forums? You may just encounter one of those enigmatic geniuses who's suggestion(s) instantly solve the problem.
    I've gotten lots of feedback from current users of the keyboard, as I've made contact through a website/forums dedicated to them, as well as with several people around the world who either sell these keyboards commercially or have posted articles, including modifications to make them work. Whether they use the PS/2 port directly or an active adapater-to-USB port, all say they've never heard of such a problem. They all point to the motherboard or less likely the PSU as the most likely source of the problem. That's what got me here and pushing the matter more than I would normally do.

    I'm not clear what you're saying re PSU spec changes over the years vis a vis this problem, but here's the Corsair VX450W spec:

    Model CMPSU-450VXAC Input Rating 90 - 264VAC

    DC Output +3.3V +5V +12V -12V +5VSB
    Max Load 20A 20A 33A 0.8A 2.5A
    Max Output 130W 396W 9.6W 12.5W

    TOTAL POWER: 450W

    The idea of "residual charge" is the term I was looking for and will allow me to focus better my questions. If it wasn't doing it with the K8 board/Corsair PSU and the IBM keyboard, then wouldn't that suggest it's on the motherboard side? Were that the case, VorLonUK says it wouldn't mean there's anything wrong with the Gigabyte mb, which I can accept, but it does make me wonder if the incompatibility was intentional or they just didn't think to test with an older kb like this. They don't say anything about incompatibilities in the manual, and there are enough legacy keyboards (and other devices) like this out there that I would think they would have intended to cover the bases.
    Last edited by genegold; 07-15-2009 at 04:14 AM.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    Sorry...

    I'm not clear what you're saying re PSU spec changes over the years vis a vis this problem, but here's the Corsair VX450W spec:
    I was trying to make an analogy rather than actually digging deeper about the PSU side of things.
    A better way to describe what i was trying to say (although the PSU one was genuine and does fit the analogy well), is that take say a few PS2 Keyboard interfacing chips. Let's call them X, Y & Z

    Now you can only go so far with backward compatability, so manufacturers have to draw the line somewhere, especially when new hardware needs good support. It wouldn't be reasonable to build in support for a 10 year old keyboard, if that keyboard sold in low numbers and didn't meet the proper standards even at the time.

    So an example may look like this:-

    Chip........Chip Release........Compatibility Cut Off

    X............1995..................1980
    Y............2005..................1990
    Z............2015..................2000

    So in the case of ATX PSU's they have evolved over the years. BUT rather than just adding to support the newest requirements, they have dropped support for older hardware.
    So if I want to buy a PSU for my old Power Hungry XP2100+ palomino Socket A CPU on an Asus A7M266 I'm stuck! That board I purchased in 2001, which is a lot newer than your keyboard.
    Yet the PSU I would require would need a healthy 5 and 3.3 volt supply as on the older boards the CPU power was derived via the 5 volt line. Power supplies were then quoted as having a "combined power rating". Meaning the total wattage available of the 5 & 3.3volt rails. 35/40 amps on the 5 volt rail would be the sort of figure I would need and a good 400watt PSU would be able to supply that.
    Now you have a look on the Net for a PSU under 500watts (i'll be generous) that can supply 40 amps or even 35amps on it's 5 volt line.

    So nowadays the emphasis has shifted to the 12 volt line where the CPU power is now derived. But in doing that, they didn't say "Let's beef up the 12volt line and leave all as it is on the 5 & 3.3volt lines" - they simply decided to STOP backward compatibility. (Obviously there are very valid reasons for that - one being cost)

    Now to your keyboard and PS2 controllers. A lot of CMOS out there (ie modern semiconductors) is designed to run at 5volts, just like the old TTL systems did). Basically they have kept voltage compatibility even when that voltage isn't required for CMOS to work, just so older equipment can interface with it, if required.
    Btw the word "CMOS" is used in a very generic way when it comes to motherboards, ie "clearing the CMOS" - I'm not using it in that way

    So it is possible and i don't know the Specs or how Gigabyte decide how these chips will work in their design, but your ITE IT8720 may have "moved on" and is catering more for the here and now and less for older equipment. ie it's technology span has shifted closer to the current or even future time.
    My Motherboard the one in my Sig uses an ITE IT8718 and may for all we know support your IBM keyboard perfectly. That could be because of the chip, or GB's implementation or both.

    I suppose if you were that interested you could narrow things down and find another make or just model of board that uses the IT8720 and see if it supports your keyboard. If it did, you'd know that the chip wasn't the problem.
    I just wonder though that as things progress and always a key point being power saving/modes etc that ultimately the greedy electronics of the past will be become less and less compatible (and made redundant more quickly than before too).
    Last edited by VorLonUK; 07-15-2009 at 08:23 AM.
    GA-P35C-DS3R Rev2.0 F11 bios, E8200 (@3.0Ghz), OCZ DDR3 PC3-10666 Reaper 4GB (@1200Mhz), Xonar D1, 8800GTS 512, Corsair HX520 (Single 12volt line, Max 40A), WDC 3200aaks/5000aaks in AHCI mode, Vista 64 Premium.

  5. #35
    genegold is offline Member
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    I appreciate both of your thoughtful replies. As you imply, this discussion is dealing with a sample of one. With that in mind, I just started a thread over at the geekhack site, where some people with these keyboards gather, asking what motherboards they're using. See what turns up.

    In the meantime, a replacement PSU is on the way, however little likely a source of the problem it is.

  6. #36
    genegold is offline Member
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    Quote Originally Posted by VorLonUK View Post
    I suppose if you were that interested you could narrow things down and find another make or just model of board that uses the IT8720 and see if it supports your keyboard. If it did, you'd know that the chip wasn't the problem.
    I just wonder though that as things progress and always a key point being power saving/modes etc that ultimately the greedy electronics of the past will be become less and less compatible (and made redundant more quickly than before too).
    One result of my small survey of IBM Model M keyboard users was finding someone who had used it successfully with a Gigabyte GA-MA790-UDP, which has the same I/O chip as my UD4P. By coincidence, the replacement PSU came the next day, the remaining unchecked variable. Plugged it in and the start up problem disappeared! No more having to wait 30 minutes for the residual current/capacitance to clear or drain. Seems anticlimatic.

    In the interest of full disclosure, at the same time as hooking up the new PSU I also hooked up the case lights and fan for the first time. Could those additions have created a different interaction between motherboard and keyboard re residual current/capacitance? The answer to that is beyond my paygrade.

    So at least I can say, no reason to rag on the old IBM keyboards - unless you don't like the clickity clack.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    I love the clickity clack of a good old chunky KB! It's a really nice feeling to have such a positive action as you type.

    Hope you didn't think anyone was ragging on you or your hardware. The conclusion that VorLonUK came to was a logical one, as the hardware is in computer terms an OAP. However it proves that there can be other things at work, and it seems a PSU can screw with certain older hardware or the adaptors used.

    I'm chuffed you got it going. You have a right to use the peripherals you like, and your success has pleased me. It's one less piece of plastic at landfill in today's throw-away society, and it gives you pleasure to use. That's a win win situation in my book.

    Good result!
    Coolermaster CM 690 II advance Case
    Corsair HX750 (CWT, 91%(80+ Gold rated @230V) single 62A 12V rail
    P55A-UD4 v2.0 @ F14
    Core i5 760 @ 20 x 201, 4.02GHz
    TRUE Black with a single Noctua NF-P12 pumping out 55 CFM @ 19db .
    2 x 2GB Mushkin Ridgeback (996902), @ 7-10-8-27, 2010-DDR, 1.66v
    2 x Gigabyte GTX 460 1024MB in SLI (Pre OC'd to 715MHz core and 1800MHz VRAM) @ 850 Core / 4100 Mem.
    Intel X25-M Boot Drive (OS and Programs) 200MB/s Read & 90MB/s Write
    Corsair X32 200MB/s Read & 100MB/s Write
    WD Caviar Blue 640GB C (Steam, Games, Storage, Temp Files & Folders, etc)
    Samsung F3 500GB Backup/Images
    Noctua 1300RPM 19dB case fan (rear extraction)
    3 x 140 MM Coolermaster LED fans (one front intake, one top extraction, one side intake)
    Dell Ultra Sharp 2209WAf E-IPS @ 1680x1050

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Looking for Electrical/Electronic expertise re older keyboard problem (Gigabyte m

    Gene, personal question for you. Note: You are not obligated to answer. Are you Vulcan? J/K

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