Please report all spam threads, posts and suspicious members. We receive spam notifications and will take immediate action!
Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 50

Thread: EP45-UD3R E8500 overclocking




  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    55

    Default EP45-UD3R E8500 overclocking

    Managed to get 3.4GHz booting, and then modified it slightly to get system booting at 4.21GHz!

    Beginning of STRESS TEST results below.

    I will post some of the values I have thus far, if you have any advice about how to improve stability or tweaks for improvements please let me know.

    Current test running: Prime95 - BLEND - 2 THREADS






    Code:
    Motherboard: GA-EP45-UD3R v1.1 BIOS F12
    Cpu: E8500 Wolfdale
    Ram: G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (x2) - http://tinyurl.com/ygxftcx
    Power Supply Unit: BFG GX 550W - http://www.bfgtech.com/bfgr550wgxpsu.aspx
    
    
    MB Intelligent Tweaker(M.I.T.)
    Robust Graphics Booster -------------- : [Auto]
    CPU Clock Ratio ---------------------- : [9 X]
    Fine CPU Clock Ratio ----------------- : [0.5] 
    CPU Frequency -------------------------: 4.21GHz (444x9.5) 
    
    Clock Chip Control
    Standard Clock Control
    CPU Host Clock Control --------------- : [Enabled]
    CPU Host Frequency (Mhz) --------------: [444]
    PCI Express Frequency (Mhz) ---------- : [100]
    
    C.I.A.2 ------------------------------ : [Disabled]
    
    Advanced Clock Control ------- [Press Enter]
    CPU Clock Drive ---------------------- : [800mV]
    PCI Express Clock Drive -------------- : [900mV]
    CPU Clock Skew (ps) ------------------ : [0ps]
    MCH Clock Skew (ps) ------------------ : [0ps]
    
    DRAM Performance Control
    Performance Enhance ------------------- : [Standard]
    Extreme Memory Profile --- (X.M.P.) --- : [Disabled]
    (G)MCH Frequency Latch ---------------- : [Auto]
    System Memory Multiplier -------------- : [2.40B]
    Memory Frequency (Mhz) ---------------- : [1066]
    DRAM Timing Selectable ---------------- : [Manual]
    
    Standard Timing Control
    CAS Latency Time -------- 5 --------- : [5]
    tRCD -------------------  7 ---------- : [5]
    tRP --------------------- 7 ---------- : [5]
    tRAS ------------------- 20 ----- ---- : [15]
    
    Advanced Timing Control
    tRRD ------------------- 4 ---------- : [Auto]
    tWTR ------------------ 4 ---------- : [Auto]
    tWR --------------------8 ---------- : [Auto]
    tRFC ---------- --------68 ---------- : [Auto]
    tRTP ------------------- 4 ---------- : [Auto]
    Command Rate (CMD) ------0------------: [Auto]
    
    Driving Strength Profiles
    Driving Strength --------- : Press Enter <--- press ENTER to modify memory sub-timings when overclocking
    
    Channel A
    Static tRead Value ------------8--------- : [Auto]
    tRD Phase0 Adjustment --------0--------- : [Auto]
    tRD Phase1 Adjustment --------0--------- : [Auto]
    tRD Phase2 Adjustment --------0--------- : [Auto]
    tRD Phase3 Adjustment --------0--------- : [Auto]
    Trd2rd(Different Rank) ---------8--------- : [Auto]
    Twr2wr(Different Rank) --------8--------- : [Auto]
    Twr2rd(Different Rank) --------7--------- : [Auto]
    Trd2wr(Same/Diff Rank) -------9--------- : [Auto]
    Dimm1 Clock Skew Control --------------- : [Auto]
    Dimm2 Clock Skew Control --------------- : [Auto]
    
    Channel B
    Static tRead Value ------------8--------- : [Auto]
    tRD Phase0 Adjustment --------0--------- : [Auto]
    tRD Phase1 Adjustment --------0--------- : [Auto]
    tRD Phase2 Adjustment --------0--------- : [Auto]
    tRD Phase3 Adjustment --------0--------- : [Auto]
    Trd2rd(Different Rank) ---------8--------- : [Auto]
    Twr2wr(Different Rank) --------8--------- : [Auto]
    Twr2rd(Different Rank) --------7--------- : [Auto]
    Trd2wr(Same/Diff Rank) -------9--------- : [Auto]
    Dimm1 Clock Skew Control --------------- : [Auto]
    Dimm2 Clock Skew Control --------------- : [Auto]
    
    Motherboard Voltage Control
    CPU
    Voltage Types------------ Normal --------- Current -----
    Load-Line Calibration -------------------- : [Disabled]
    CPU Vcore --------------- 1.25000V ----- : [1.36250V]
    
    CPU Termination --------- 1.200V* ------ : [1.300V]
    CPU PLL ----------------- 1.500V* ------ : [1.500V]
    
    CPU Reference ----------- 0.760V* ------ : [Auto]
    CPU Reference2 ---------- ?.???V* ------ : [Auto] <- N/A
    
    MCH/ICH
    MCH Core ---------------- 1.100V ------- : [1.320V]
    MCH Reference ----------- 0.760V -------- : [Auto]
    MCH/DRAM Ref ------------ 0.900V ------- : [Auto]
    ICH I/O ----------------- 1.500V -------- : [1.610V]
    ICH Core ---------------- 1.100V -------- : [1.200V]
    DRAM
    DRAM Voltage ------------ 1.800V ------- : [2.100V]
    DRAM Termination -------- 0.900V ------- : [Auto]
    Channel A Reference ----- 0.900V ------- : [Auto]
    Channel B Reference ----- 0.900V ------- : [Auto]
    
    Advanced Settings
    Limit CPUID Max. to 3 ------------------ : [Disabled]
    No-Execute Memory Protect -------------- : [Enabled]
    CPU Enhanced Halt (C1E) ---------------- : [Disabled]
    C2/C2E State Support ------------------- : [Disabled]
    x C4/C4E State Support ----------------- : [Disabled]
    CPU Thermal Monitor 2 (TM2) ------------ : [Enabled]
    CPU EIST Function ---------------------- : [Disabled]
    Virtualization Technology ---------------- : [Disabled]
    
    Integrated Peripherals
    Legacy USB Storage Detect -------------- : [Disabled]


    Prime95 Blend (2 Threads)

    1. 1.36250V - FAILED -> 7 MIN
    2. 1.36875V - FAILED -> 50 MIN
    3. 1.37500V - FAILED -> 50 MIN ?!
    4. DRAM Voltage to 2.12V, to see if fault happens around same time period, 2.12 = 2.10-2.11 in Windows - FAILED -> 8 MIN (Guess RAM doesn't like 2.12V :o)
    5. DRAM Voltage back to 2.1 - FAILED -> 1 HOUR, 16 MIN (2.1 = 2.06-2.08 in Windows, seem to have found the stable limit, CPU VCORE needs to be upped)
    6. 1.38125V(1.31-1.34~ Windows) - FAILED -> 5 HOURS, 11 MIN (Now we're getting somewhere!)
    7. 1.38750V(1.31-1.34~ Windows) - IN PROGRESS
    Last edited by HyperEX; 02-13-2010 at 07:15 PM.
    G1.Assassin 2 (F11)
    i7 3820
    Noctua NH-D14 SE2011
    GeForce GTX 680 DirectCU II TOP
    DOMINATOR GT (4x4GB) DDR3 2133 MHz 9-11-10-27 @ 1.5V
    Sandisk Extreme 240GB / Barracuda 1TB
    Win8 Pro x64
    Corsair HX750
    HAF-X

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    55

    Default Re: EP45-UD3R E8500 overclocking

    High FSB vs. High Multi? Pros and cons?

    With high FSB w/ lower multi - memory and rest of system runs faster, correct? However, for higher FSB = Higher VCORE/MCH/ETC? As well as losing stability, more stress on components, and having higher temps?

    High Multi w/ Lower FSB - Lower memory & system speed, but you have lower voltage, lower temps, higher stability.

    Anyone care to add their .02?



    When I get this stable, next thing I'm going to try is hitting 533x8 or 533x7.5 to run 1:1, then compare performance.

    So far since last voltage change, Prime 95 Blend @ 2 Threads has been running without errors for about 4 hours.
    Last edited by HyperEX; 02-13-2010 at 04:14 PM.
    G1.Assassin 2 (F11)
    i7 3820
    Noctua NH-D14 SE2011
    GeForce GTX 680 DirectCU II TOP
    DOMINATOR GT (4x4GB) DDR3 2133 MHz 9-11-10-27 @ 1.5V
    Sandisk Extreme 240GB / Barracuda 1TB
    Win8 Pro x64
    Corsair HX750
    HAF-X

  3. #3
    profJim's Avatar
    profJim is online now Chief Munchkin + moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Tacoma, WA. [USA]
    Posts
    7,811

    Default Re: EP45-UD3R E8500 overclocking

    Adding the brand and model/part numbers in your signature helps us out and helps eliminate errors.
    I don't recall which memory you're using.

    Sometimes lower memory volts helps. 8GB of memory is always tricky.

    With 8GB, set tRFC looser for now, 75 - 80 might be needed.
    Memory timings can be tightened once you've reach your "final" stable o/c.

    Increasing Cpu Termination (VTT) often helps stability, you might want to try 1.32 or 1.34 volts. Cpu Vcore might need to be increased too. Don't worry about vcore settings in the upper 1.3x volt range. Your cpu core temperatures are fine right now.

    The only change I'd make to your general statements is that it's harder to reach stable settings when you push your system with more aggressive settings. It boils down to which combination of cpu and memory speeds best meets your needs for the applications you're running. Some will have several different saved bios profiles for their specific needs, such as 24/7 use, gaming, encoding, etc.
    Q9650 @ 4.10GHz [9x456MHz]
    P35-DS4 [rev: 2.0] ~ Bios: F14
    4x2GB OCZ Reaper PC2-8500 1094MHz @5-5-5-15
    MSI N460GTX Hawk Talon Attack (1GB) video card <---- SLI ---->
    Seasonic SS-660XP2 80 Plus Platinum psu (660w)
    WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data)
    Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD (boot)
    SLI @ 16/4 works when running HyperSLI
    Cooler Master 120XL Seidon push/pull AIO cpu water cooling
    Cooler Master HAF XB computer case (RC-902XB-KKN1)
    Asus VH242H 24" monitor [1920x1080]
    MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) video card
    Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium
    HT|Omega Claro plus+ sound card
    CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD UPS
    E6300 (R0) @ 3.504GHz [8x438MHz] ~~ P35-DS3L [rev: 1.0] ~ Bios: F9 ~~ 4x2GB Kingston HyperX T1 PC2-8500, 876MHz @4-4-4-10
    Seasonic X650 80+ gold psu (650w) ~~ Xigmatek Balder HDT 1283 cpu cooler ~~ Cooler Master CM 690 case (RC-690-KKN1-GP)
    Samsung 830 128GB SSD MZ-7PC128B/WW (boot) ~~ WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data) ~~ ZM-MFC2 fan controller
    HT|Omega Striker 7.1 sound card ~~ Asus VH242H monitor [1920x1080] ~~ Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium ~~ CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD U.P.S
    .


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    55

    Default Re: EP45-UD3R E8500 overclocking

    Quote Originally Posted by profJim View Post
    Adding the brand and model/part numbers in your signature helps us out and helps eliminate errors.
    I don't recall which memory you're using.

    Sometimes lower memory volts helps. 8GB of memory is always tricky.

    With 8GB, set tRFC looser for now, 75 - 80 might be needed.
    Memory timings can be tightened once you've reach your "final" stable o/c.

    Increasing Cpu Termination (VTT) often helps stability, you might want to try 1.32 or 1.34 volts. Cpu Vcore might need to be increased too. Don't worry about vcore settings in the upper 1.3x volt range. Your cpu core temperatures are fine right now.

    The only change I'd make to your general statements is that it's harder to reach stable settings when you push your system with more aggressive settings. It boils down to which combination of cpu and memory speeds best meets your needs for the applications you're running. Some will have several different saved bios profiles for their specific needs, such as 24/7 use, gaming, encoding, etc.
    Think I'm making some headway, Prime95 failed again, but this time at 5 hours, 11 min. Bumped up VCORE 1 notch, I think I'm getting close.

    This board and CPU <b>CAN</b> reach 533FSB, correct? I may just have to run something like a 4GHz OC using slightly lower multi?

    The higher FSB seems to be the king as long as you can keep temps within reason, I do not want to push this CPUs VCORE past 1.4v as many reports tell me 1.4v (With LLC disabled, maybe 1.45-1.47 max) is the max you want to reach for E8500.
    Last edited by HyperEX; 02-13-2010 at 06:11 PM.
    G1.Assassin 2 (F11)
    i7 3820
    Noctua NH-D14 SE2011
    GeForce GTX 680 DirectCU II TOP
    DOMINATOR GT (4x4GB) DDR3 2133 MHz 9-11-10-27 @ 1.5V
    Sandisk Extreme 240GB / Barracuda 1TB
    Win8 Pro x64
    Corsair HX750
    HAF-X

  5. #5
    profJim's Avatar
    profJim is online now Chief Munchkin + moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Tacoma, WA. [USA]
    Posts
    7,811

    Default Re: EP45-UD3R E8500 overclocking

    In general, your best balance of performance versus higher temperatures and voltages will be in the 3.8 - 3.9GHz range. Using the 2.00B or 2.00D memory multiplier, your memory speeds will be in the 900+ MHz range, and you should be able to use somewhat tighter primary memory timings.

    Synthetic benchmark scores won't be as high, but the bottom line for me is which settings give the best overall real world application performance without using extreme settings.
    Q9650 @ 4.10GHz [9x456MHz]
    P35-DS4 [rev: 2.0] ~ Bios: F14
    4x2GB OCZ Reaper PC2-8500 1094MHz @5-5-5-15
    MSI N460GTX Hawk Talon Attack (1GB) video card <---- SLI ---->
    Seasonic SS-660XP2 80 Plus Platinum psu (660w)
    WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data)
    Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD (boot)
    SLI @ 16/4 works when running HyperSLI
    Cooler Master 120XL Seidon push/pull AIO cpu water cooling
    Cooler Master HAF XB computer case (RC-902XB-KKN1)
    Asus VH242H 24" monitor [1920x1080]
    MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) video card
    Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium
    HT|Omega Claro plus+ sound card
    CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD UPS
    E6300 (R0) @ 3.504GHz [8x438MHz] ~~ P35-DS3L [rev: 1.0] ~ Bios: F9 ~~ 4x2GB Kingston HyperX T1 PC2-8500, 876MHz @4-4-4-10
    Seasonic X650 80+ gold psu (650w) ~~ Xigmatek Balder HDT 1283 cpu cooler ~~ Cooler Master CM 690 case (RC-690-KKN1-GP)
    Samsung 830 128GB SSD MZ-7PC128B/WW (boot) ~~ WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data) ~~ ZM-MFC2 fan controller
    HT|Omega Striker 7.1 sound card ~~ Asus VH242H monitor [1920x1080] ~~ Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium ~~ CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD U.P.S
    .


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    55

    Default Re: EP45-UD3R E8500 overclocking

    Would 533MHz FSB be safe? Now, that's my question. Also, if I ran 533MHz, I could run 1:1 ratio with RAM. Which I've read gives some performance increase with Intel chipsets (at least 5%?)

    If 533MHz isn't safe for FSB, I'll definitely follow your advice for 3.8-3.9GHz and try to run tighter memory timings for possibly equal or better performance.
    G1.Assassin 2 (F11)
    i7 3820
    Noctua NH-D14 SE2011
    GeForce GTX 680 DirectCU II TOP
    DOMINATOR GT (4x4GB) DDR3 2133 MHz 9-11-10-27 @ 1.5V
    Sandisk Extreme 240GB / Barracuda 1TB
    Win8 Pro x64
    Corsair HX750
    HAF-X

  7. #7
    profJim's Avatar
    profJim is online now Chief Munchkin + moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Tacoma, WA. [USA]
    Posts
    7,811

    Default Re: EP45-UD3R E8500 overclocking

    Safe is a relative term. It all depends on using "reasonable" voltages where temperatures are not excessive.

    My ep45-ud3p, with my E6550 could boot using 7x529 (unstable) and run stress tests, where temps and volts were reasonable.

    Case cooling and ambient room temperatures have a major effect on temperatures, where each 1 degree (C) increase raises cpu core temps about 1 (C). It helps to have top tier air or water cooling hardware with very high FSB settings. With the proper hardware, FSB speeds in the mid to upper 500MHz range are doable with the ep45-ud3p.
    Q9650 @ 4.10GHz [9x456MHz]
    P35-DS4 [rev: 2.0] ~ Bios: F14
    4x2GB OCZ Reaper PC2-8500 1094MHz @5-5-5-15
    MSI N460GTX Hawk Talon Attack (1GB) video card <---- SLI ---->
    Seasonic SS-660XP2 80 Plus Platinum psu (660w)
    WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data)
    Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD (boot)
    SLI @ 16/4 works when running HyperSLI
    Cooler Master 120XL Seidon push/pull AIO cpu water cooling
    Cooler Master HAF XB computer case (RC-902XB-KKN1)
    Asus VH242H 24" monitor [1920x1080]
    MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) video card
    Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium
    HT|Omega Claro plus+ sound card
    CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD UPS
    E6300 (R0) @ 3.504GHz [8x438MHz] ~~ P35-DS3L [rev: 1.0] ~ Bios: F9 ~~ 4x2GB Kingston HyperX T1 PC2-8500, 876MHz @4-4-4-10
    Seasonic X650 80+ gold psu (650w) ~~ Xigmatek Balder HDT 1283 cpu cooler ~~ Cooler Master CM 690 case (RC-690-KKN1-GP)
    Samsung 830 128GB SSD MZ-7PC128B/WW (boot) ~~ WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data) ~~ ZM-MFC2 fan controller
    HT|Omega Striker 7.1 sound card ~~ Asus VH242H monitor [1920x1080] ~~ Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium ~~ CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD U.P.S
    .


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    55

    Default Re: EP45-UD3R E8500 overclocking

    FSB stresses the MCH mainly, correct? Only thing is, I don't have a temp monitor to know what the temp would be at high clock speeds, and even if I knew the temp, I don't know what the maximum safe temp would be.

    Seems like a bit of a paradox.

    If system runs at 533MHz, great. But causing permanent MB damage over time due to stress, not so great.

    I'd like to think my case has good cooling, in my Antec 900, all fans set to high. Also, my CPU cooler is set to always 100%.
    G1.Assassin 2 (F11)
    i7 3820
    Noctua NH-D14 SE2011
    GeForce GTX 680 DirectCU II TOP
    DOMINATOR GT (4x4GB) DDR3 2133 MHz 9-11-10-27 @ 1.5V
    Sandisk Extreme 240GB / Barracuda 1TB
    Win8 Pro x64
    Corsair HX750
    HAF-X

  9. #9
    profJim's Avatar
    profJim is online now Chief Munchkin + moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Tacoma, WA. [USA]
    Posts
    7,811

    Default Re: EP45-UD3R E8500 overclocking

    The "system" temperature displayed in many monitoring programs is a good approximation of the north bridge (MCH) temperature, as it is often located near (but not on) the NB. Placing a fan so that it blows air directly on the NB heat-sink will lower NB temperatures several degrees. An 80mm fan is usually sufficient, but using a larger fan can often lower temperatures on the NB and your memory at the same time. This can be especially beneficial when you are using four memory modules.
    FSB stresses the MCH mainly, correct?
    Mainly, yes, but....
    With much higher FSB settings, you usually have to increase several voltage settings including:
    Cpu Vcore
    Cpu Terminination
    Cpu PLL
    and sometimes:
    ICH I/O
    ICH Core

    I assume that increases in termination and reference volt settings puts added stress on other components.

    With higher voltages and additional heat, you're putting additional stress on the various voltage regulating circuits, and all components in your computer case.
    Last edited by profJim; 02-13-2010 at 08:16 PM. Reason: additional info
    Q9650 @ 4.10GHz [9x456MHz]
    P35-DS4 [rev: 2.0] ~ Bios: F14
    4x2GB OCZ Reaper PC2-8500 1094MHz @5-5-5-15
    MSI N460GTX Hawk Talon Attack (1GB) video card <---- SLI ---->
    Seasonic SS-660XP2 80 Plus Platinum psu (660w)
    WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data)
    Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD (boot)
    SLI @ 16/4 works when running HyperSLI
    Cooler Master 120XL Seidon push/pull AIO cpu water cooling
    Cooler Master HAF XB computer case (RC-902XB-KKN1)
    Asus VH242H 24" monitor [1920x1080]
    MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) video card
    Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium
    HT|Omega Claro plus+ sound card
    CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD UPS
    E6300 (R0) @ 3.504GHz [8x438MHz] ~~ P35-DS3L [rev: 1.0] ~ Bios: F9 ~~ 4x2GB Kingston HyperX T1 PC2-8500, 876MHz @4-4-4-10
    Seasonic X650 80+ gold psu (650w) ~~ Xigmatek Balder HDT 1283 cpu cooler ~~ Cooler Master CM 690 case (RC-690-KKN1-GP)
    Samsung 830 128GB SSD MZ-7PC128B/WW (boot) ~~ WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data) ~~ ZM-MFC2 fan controller
    HT|Omega Striker 7.1 sound card ~~ Asus VH242H monitor [1920x1080] ~~ Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium ~~ CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD U.P.S
    .


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    55

    Default Re: EP45-UD3R E8500 overclocking

    Tried booting with 533FSB, couldn't get it to work on 1.4MCH, tried a handful of safe VCOREs too, no luck. However, I also tried 500FSB (which should be possible), was trying to run 4.0GHz (8x500MHz), with ram at 1000MHz, 1:1. Tried MCH ranges from 1.32-1.40V, no luck. Also tried VCORE from 1.36250-1.4V, also no luck. I believe I tried using 400MHz strap w/ 2.00D. (can't recall offhand) What other settings must be changed?
    G1.Assassin 2 (F11)
    i7 3820
    Noctua NH-D14 SE2011
    GeForce GTX 680 DirectCU II TOP
    DOMINATOR GT (4x4GB) DDR3 2133 MHz 9-11-10-27 @ 1.5V
    Sandisk Extreme 240GB / Barracuda 1TB
    Win8 Pro x64
    Corsair HX750
    HAF-X

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •