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Thread: EP45-UD3 power distribution opinions.




  1. #11
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    Default Re: EP45-UD3 power distribution opinions.

    ^^^^ I agree!!!
    You've had your current inexpensive psu for several years.
    Why take a chance that the psu might fry your current (or future) hardware.

    Ya, I know, it's easy for me to spend your money ;)
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  2. #12

    Default Re: EP45-UD3 power distribution opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho101 View Post
    messing about with PSU wiring, shifting cables to different rails etc is a really bad idea. I wouldn't recommend anyone mess about with how a PSU is wired up unless they are highly electrically qualified. That includes simply splicing wires. Like you said, you don't actually know for sure what your PSU is doing in terms of power distribution, OCP etc, so why risk fcuking with it?

    As for OCCT's readouts, they're pretty worthless IMO. The only way to get semi accurate ripple measurements is using an oscilloscope in conjunction with some pretty specialist equipment. Who knows how accurate OCCT is? After all it's reporting software, not hardware. When testing a PSU for example for review, a lot of very expensive equipment is needed to load the PSU, record power draw etc. All you can tell form OCCT is that there may be a little ripple and some voltage drop. Forget "5% ripple" as that's got as much chance of being precise as I have of winning the lottery.

    If the PSU isn't up to the job, sell it and buy one that is. That's the only solution, other than buying a specialist 12V only GPU 5.25" bay PSU for the card.

    500W is a little on the restrictive side any way, so maybe ebay it and get something between 650W and 850W and with a single 12V rail. That way you can use the whole output of the PSU without having to deal with pointless seperate rails that have zero benefit anyway on modern PSU circuitry.

    Having been an electronics major in secondary school I would concour completely
    often connections on PS's are not what one expects and then as far as OCCT's ripple it a very dubious showing
    I personally give it no credence other than program puffing
    a good 'scope and few other bench requirements are in order to ascertain ripple
    Also the circuits quality itself and its parts determine low ripple
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  3. #13
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    Default Re: EP45-UD3 power distribution opinions.

    Movin a little off the q here.
    Thats why the original post was so long. nm

    My psu is still (for now) at least, ok There arre no failures at the maximum stress im applying.
    If I had a definite single rail psu it wouldnt matter as long as it was well constructed.
    I mean I wouldnt be too happy about 400 w going thru a single supply point on the psu cb .
    On hard testing there is a tendency to head towards the atx psu limits the difference is the new gx card.Its power management is better.So at lower load its probably working better than my old one.
    If i wasnt "clocking" the new gx card also,it would be np.In theory it isnt even as it is ,but with everything except the cpu limited to 180 w maximum on 12v :

    Taking into consideration :
    1. I merely want some opinions on the 12v2 supply
    (a) should I connect it to the gx card and which of the 2 connectors?
    (b) shouild I connect it purely to as many fans as possible max rated power draw in the region of 10w.They would be running at full speed the whole time so power variations to the cpu shouldnt be a problem.
    (c) maybe even connect it to the main gx card 6 pin input.
    2.From the info supplied above the 12v2 supply has more headroom than the 12v1
    3.After nearly 3 years the psu has reached its maximum degredation.ie could be down to 450-475 maximum output.It is practically dust free since the last cleaning tho.
    4.Psu's are more expensive in Europe
    5.If..I stress" if" changing psu i would buy a $40 equivalent 750w one i have been looking at(no it doesnt have a 5 year guarantee) but it does have all the connectors i require.
    The connectors I need are on the wiring loom.if the psu is terrible i can cannibalise them.

    Im working on the maximum overclocked requirement for my setup is 400 w(including gx card overclock)
    If it was sli with 2 of the same gx card it could be 600w+
    i7 920/930 overclocked with 2 gx cards sli overclocked 700+ etc etc.

    Ill post how it goes,any improvement on heat/overc;ock limits etc sometime in the next week or so.
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  4. #14
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    Default Re: EP45-UD3 power distribution opinions.

    i have had a jeantech 300w psu in my hp pentium pc for 5 years now and its still going strong,psu's dont have to be expensive if you manage to hit on the right brand,the one i have in this system an alphapower has loads of connections ie 8pin cpu power/5 sata/hdd power connectors,even 6 and 8pin gpu power plugs and it was cheap at 46-$71 new from ebay,my systems been clocked at 4.2ghz for over a year now with 3hdd's gpu/tv card/dvd drive and 5 fans, its been flawless,just goes to show it doesnt always have to be expensive
    Last edited by wazza300; 09-05-2010 at 07:13 AM.
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  5. #15
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    Default Re: EP45-UD3 power distribution opinions.

    You're going to gain nothing in the way of overclocking headroom or stability by doing this. In fact the risks that you're going to fry something are greater than the chance of anything positive coming of this.

    Ask yourself a few questions before you start splicing wires, re-soldering or what ever it is you're planning to do. I say "what ever it is you're planning" because you really haven't worded clearly what you're actually planning to physically do to your PSU, and the more I read your posts the less clear it becomes.

    Question 1 Do you either a) have access to circuit diagrams of your EXACT model of PSU originating from the OEM (and the capacity to read and understand them) or b) have found a write up by a competent person who has done something similar to your EXACT model of PSU?

    Question 2: Can you afford to replace ALL your hardware (worst case) if you should screw up?

    If the answer to EITHER of those is "No" then leave the PSU alone.

    No offence intended, I'm just going to be perfectly honest here...

    After nearly 3 years the psu has reached its maximum degredation.
    A PSU never stops degrading. Where you got the "after 3 years degradation peaks" thing from I don't know, but it's completely wrong. A PSU NEVER stops degrading. Electrolyte inside capacitors constantly degrades day by day, week by week, year by year until the capacitor fails completely. there is no "maximum degradation".

    From the info supplied above the 12v2 supply has more headroom than the 12v1
    That information is no where near enough to tell you what the PSU is actually doing in terms of power distribution. You do not know at what point the OCP is set to kick in. One would hope that there is a sensible +/-10%-15% on them, especially considering how restrictive the rail containing the PCIE connectors is set up. For all you know, the PSU may actually employ intelligent OCP and will be able to supply more current on the 12V2 rail as long as load on 12V1 is light.

    " if" changing psu i would buy a $40 equivalent 750w one i have been looking at
    That 750W PSU you've been looking at is cr ap. But how do I know that? You haven't even linked it! Simple. You WILL NOT get a quality 750W PSU for $40. You'll struggle to get a decent 350W-400W supply for that amount of money. Yes, it might have all the connectors you need, but that's because connectors are just cheap bits of wire, even sh1t PSU's have lots of connections. That PSU will either be a prehistoric design with p155 poor efficiency and stability or it will be made with extremely cheap materials.

    I've seen PSU's priced like that many many times. There are tell tale signs. Does the manufacturer tell you at what intake temperature the PSU is rated? If not, don't buy it. If it stated tested at 25c, don't buy it. A PSU should be able to easily supply its max output wattage while sucking in air at 40c+. After all, what use is a 750W PSU at 25c intake temp, when the ambient case temp of an average PC is usually over 30c? Also take a look at the amperage/wattage rating for the +5V rail. If there seems to be an unusually large amount of power allocated to it, then it's definitely a prehistoric model, more suited to powering a P3/early P4 or AMD Athlon/Athlon XP based PC.

    I can appreciate the want/need to tinker and play with things but a PSU rewally is not something you should be tinkering with in any way. Don't be tight. Buy a decent larger PSU if you feel you need it. If you don't or you haven't experienced any problems then leave the thing alone. PLaying around and re-wiring it's about as good an idea as wiring your nipples to the mains.
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    Default Re: EP45-UD3 power distribution opinions.

    i agree i wouldnt go chopping wires and soldering extra ones ect,your just gonna overload the psu,better to go out and buy a bigger unit,i still say you can pick up a cheap capable psu that will do the job,they all have to pass testing by law ie overvoltage/short circuit protection,some cheap units are poor though but not all
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  7. #17
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    Default Re: EP45-UD3 power distribution opinions.

    Unfortunately the only tests a PSU has to pass by law are those of basic electrical safety in the country in which it's sold. For us in the UK that means they must be up to a couple of specific British Standards "BS Numbers" and must display the "Kite Mark" if required. This testing is on certain things like correct guage of wire used (to avoid over heating) etc. Basically this regulates the way in which a PSU "sucks in" electricity from the wall. It must do so in a well behaved manner, and not cause any adverse effect to the users mains supply (leakage to earth etc). At no point is the quality of DC power produced by these supplies tested when an electrical safety test is carried out.

    Everything from OCP testing to Hi-POT testing is completely optional and is more a process of internal company quality control than anything the law requires, unfortunately. PSU companies can litterally chuck in any old crap as long as it's physically wired up safely, is correctly earthed etc.

    I'm not saying all cheaper PSU's are bad. It comes down to wether or not you trust the company you're buying from to use good quality components. It could function fine for anything from a week to a couple of years and then simply explode, taking your PC with it. Think of it like buying a burger from a takeaway joint. They may hand you something that looks good, smells great and initially tastes just fine at the time when in reality the "meat" is a subtle blend of ear holes, eye holes and ars e holes, under cooked that causes you to spend the next day p155ing out of your bum.

    A cheaper PSU may not fail instantly, but can you trust it to "die gracefully"? I've had two PSU's fail. The first was a 520W Hiper PSU. It worked great for ~1.5 years then one day I turned on my PC and soon after heard a loud hum followed by a louder click, and the PC powered down. The slight smell of "electrical whoops" told me it was the PSU that had fried a component and then latched to shut itself off. I swapped it out with the original 350W FSP PSU and the PC sprang to life with everything working perfectly.

    The second PSU to die on me wasn't so kind. It was in my brother's PC. I'd found a 30 650W PSU rebranded by Sweex. It was cheap, had loads of connectors and it was gold.. BLING! When it went, the PC didn't shut down right away. The PSU billowed smoke for a couple of seconds, then started to spark. Lucky I was in the room to pull the plug or the damn thing would definitely have started to burn. Pulling it apart revealed an exploded capacitor (some electrolyte was splattered inside the PC case too, missed components though thank god) and what looked like 20 and 22 guage wire, burned through to the bare metal. I'm no expert in electronics but 14-18 guage wire is more sensible in a PSU, almost certainly 14 guage internally for heavy amperage usage. On changing the PSU, my Bro had a non working system. It hung at the Memory check. After careful trouble shooting by me I fould that one of the two sticks of RAM was dead, along with the sound card, NIC and for some reason one of the fan headers on the mobo. Luckily removing the blown RAM, using the onboard audio and using a spare NIC meant the PC was up and running again. This time with a decent known brand PSU running it.

    I know I'm writing a lot here but I can't stress enough how important it is you buy a good quality PSU from at least a known OEM, even if the re-brander isn't that well known. One false move with the soldering iron on a good PSU can also lead to disaster. Having also studied electronics at college (in the UK that's from the ages of 16-18, before going to University) at A-Level (attained a grade B) I know from experience that unless you know COMPLETELY what a specific circuit does, and ideally have the appropriate diagram, you can come unstuck pretty quickly.

    I understand that you, like I Kick, like to tinker around with stuff. It also sounds to me like your budget is limited. Mine is too. However I strongly recommend finding something else to tinker with as something like this, if messed up can at best result in loss of components and at worst result in a fire, maybe injury or death. I don't think I'm being over dramatic, just realistic. I'd hate to hear that you'd either hurt yourself or that you'd fried something you can't afford to replace.

    Example of a bad, bad, bad PSU: Scan.co.uk: Colours IT Silent 700 W Power Supply (PSU)

    Check out the detailed specs. Two 21A rails on a 700W PSU... ok, given that Power in Watts = Voltage x Current (in Amps), that supply can output a poultry 504W on the 12V lines. That's nearly 200W less than the total rated Wattage. I suspect that the rest of this power is needlessly reserved for the +5V rail and the +3.3V rails. This indicates to me that the PSU is a poor quality copy of an old design, probably more suited to powering a P4 or Athlon XP system.

    Compare that to my current PSU. A 750W model with 62A on a single 12V rail. Using the same equation as above, total wattage available on the 12V rail is 744W. 6W off the max rated wattage of the supply. That's more than good, that's amazing. 91% efficient on 230V and 89% efficient on 120V and more importantly a product you can rely on to die gracefully when its time comes.

    As a guide, you do get what you pay for. You also don't have to pay a fortune for a decent PSU. I think a decent 600-650W PSU can be had for between 60 and 75.
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  8. #18
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    Default Re: EP45-UD3 power distribution opinions.


    Im not a professional tester
    I wont be using multimeter's ammeters ,soldering irons(id have to buy a decent instant heat one,not free).
    I cant say for sure that my system would use 400w at max cpu and gpu overclock under hard testing,but I feel from reviews,it would be around that.

    I ,that is me myself feel there could be up to 75 w free on the 12v2 rail before the 12v1 rail would reach its limit.
    The q was :> of the options I mentioned < where would posters think I should direct this.

    Fans or one of the gx card 6 pin inputs?

    Any definitive information on how gx cards draw their power from 3 inputs would be usefull also(nvidia gtx 460 specifically) or links.
    I mean the power ratios under load.
    Like 40 w from pcie slot,70w from 6pin one and 30w from 6 pin 2? or what.

    By 3 years on my own psu , I mean (I feel) its not going to degrade much more without actually failing.
    The 750w one Im looking at has modular power so i could use the leads .
    The plugins I need cost around 7-10 so in that sense I could subract that from the psu cost.

    Replying to my own post I could say:
    1.Mess ye not with power distribution !
    2. spend bucks and get a larger power supply with a "known name"
    3.leave your gx card at its standard overclock and then power needs wont be excessive.
    etc etc ,

    but all i really need is opinions on the best options for power redistribution even if only guesswork,or "from what ive read".
    Thx all.
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    Default Re: EP45-UD3 power distribution opinions.

    Max power supplied by a PCIE 2.0 slot is in theory 150W. However this extra power has never been implemented due to maintaining backward compatibility with PCIE 1.0 and the fact that PCIe power cables provide a much more scalable solution. Therefore your card, and all others will be drawing the max PCIe 1.0 standard of 75W from the slot.

    As the 460 has two 6 pin PCIe power connectors. One would assume that the rest of the card's power needs are supplied equally spread over these two connections. After all, the idea behind two connectors is for stability of power.

    The 460's official TDP for the 1GB version is 180W at stock, so assume an OC load of up to ~210W

    Assuming you want to move your fans from the rail supplying your GPU to the one supplying the motherboard and CPU, the easiest way is to buy some Y splitter cables and connect multiple fans to motherboard headers, rather than have them on molex adapters on 12V2. This safely moves quite a few watts over without splicing cables etc. That would be the limit of what I would be prepared to advise. Guesswork + electricity = epic fail IMO.
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  10. #20
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    Default Re: EP45-UD3 power distribution opinions.

    hmm ok Ill go along with that
    well 70 w from the pcie slot,
    .I didnt realise the gtx460 card draw power could be that much, so on overclock it can reach almost the limit of the 3 connectors 75+75+75.
    The problem is
    12v2 rail is only connected to the eps12v supply(the cpu power connector)

    12v1 is connected to everything else(main mbrd cable +3 fans from headers on mrbrd,1 fan thru a direct connection,and every other component.Unless the mbrd design uses some of the cpu power supply to supply curent to the pci slot/or fan headers etc ,I need to take some power diirect from that rail ,to supply either some fans directly or one of the gx card supplies.
    There are adapters around for the 12v 2 socket
    Or just leave the gx card overclocking alone and hold on my sig

    cpu cconnector.12v2 is where im going to take some power from or attempt to spread it out a little.
    n thx for the input psy.I read somewhere that the 6 pin socket closest to the edge of the gx card draws the most power ,course u cant believe all the opinions you read.
    I had originally thought something like pcie slot 60w maybe,edge 6pin socket 75 w and then inner 6 pin maybe up to 40w depending on clock and gx card v and fan speed.
    Anyway like I said ill post if I get any interesting results.

    edit : I checked the linked colors 700w psu.. the real bargain tho has to be the colors 750w one on amazon..yeh its gold! maybe the same as your brothers.
    I was able to zoom in enough on the pic to see it has a single 35a 12v rail.. thats like 420 maximum for 12 v which would be barely better than my 500w one if at all .
    Still I would have 330w for all my power hungry 5v items like my dx4-100 cpu and 3.3v mch supply(probably).
    Hey what about drool!

    Actually I bought that exact same psu^ about 24 months ago to use up the credit on an order I had and its still working away on an old machine so maybe I shouldnt be so smug.
    Kidding aside .The $45 psu I was looking at is nothing great either but lots of cables are supplied and its modular .
    I was hoping to spend like $10 max or 6-7 for the connections I want (rather than splicing /soldering etc which isnt worth it )
    If pc wasnt working with new gx card it would be different its just looking for more speed without spending more.
    Last edited by kick; 09-06-2010 at 03:07 AM. Reason: gold! psu
    Current Systems:

    Asrock p67 Extreme6.............. Gigabyte EP-45 UD3 ...................... Gigabyte 73 PVM S2
    Intel i5 2500k 4.8ghz................ Intel Q8400 3.8ghz......................... Intel D820 2.8ghz
    Zalman 10x cooler.................... Coolermaster V8............................ HP cooler
    8GB Gskill ripjaw ddr3.............. 4GB Gskill PI ddr2.......................... 4GB samsung ddr2
    60GB ssd/500GB HDD .............. WD 1TB hdd.................................... Seagate 160GB hdd
    GTX 460 1GB x2 SLI ................. Msi 9600GT 512MB(died) ........... Onboard gx
    Win7 64 ,750w psu(ocz)............ Win7 64 ,520w psu,seasonic...... Win XP pro ,400w psu

    HEC 6A34 case . ....................... Jeantec R2 case............................ Packard Bell case

    hoping to upgrade to http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/habicase.shtml
    http://www.flixya.com/video/140325/Animal-launching

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