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Thread: ICH10R Matrix Raid on EP45-DS3R in case of hard lock or hard reset?




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    Question ICH10R Matrix Raid on EP45-DS3R in case of hard lock or hard reset?

    Hi guys. It's been a long time :) I need some advice here about setting up a raid array. Here is the situation : I once tried Raid matrix on 2 hdds before and it didn't live much and I switched back to IDE mode. After some time it turned out that one of my hdd was faulty. Now I plan to set that raid up again :) But I got some questions. What happens to a matrix raid (0+1) with 2 disks in case of a hard lock up or hard reset? Can any system lockup lead to a broken array? What do you recommend?

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    Question Re: ICH10R Matrix Raid on EP45-DS3R in case of hard lock or hard reset?

    No idea?

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    Default Re: ICH10R Matrix Raid on EP45-DS3R in case of hard lock or hard reset?

    There is more risk of data loss in a RAID array if you have both the default Windows cache and the Intel write back buffer enabled. if these caches don't get flushed and the data written to disk before the PC becomes completely "non compus mentis" then the data will be lost. The same goes for drives not in a RAID array, however there is only one layer of software caching in that case.

    As for the RAID version you plan to use, do you mean RAID10/RAID 1+0. The difference is that 0+1 is striped sets in a mirrored set and requires at minimum 4 HDD's to even set up and also stipulates an even number of disks. RAID10 is mirrored sets in a striped set and can be set up with 2 disks bot there is zero performance increase until going to 4 disks. Also only 0, 1, 5 AND 10 (1+0) are available on the ICH10R.

    Most modern drives should have the time to flush the hardware cache and if the PC still has power, there should be no data loss there.

    It's a case of whether you need performance or safety. The Windows cache and the Write Back cache both offer measurable performance improvements, so the RAID array's transfer rate and IOPS will suffer. The only way around that issue would be either a seperate RAID0 for the OS with the caches on and a RAID1 for the data with them off; or even better a SSD as the boot drive and a seperate RAID1 array with no cache for data storage.

    For rapid recovery of data in the event of any data loss, simply take an image of the RAID0/SSD when everything is installed and then restore from it if needed. For the RAID 1, a status check and maybe a repair/rebuild should see it back up again.

    That's the best way to almost eliminate the problem, however there are more options. Raid5 can be used and is doable with 3 drives, giving about the same read speed as an identically sized (no. of drives) RAID0 array but with much lower random write performance due to parity.

    Either way, RAID10 is relatively robust and should be able to recover from minor damage.
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    Default Re: ICH10R Matrix Raid on EP45-DS3R in case of hard lock or hard reset?

    First of all thank you very much for your detailed explanation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho101 View Post
    if these caches don't get flushed and the data written to disk before the PC becomes completely "non compus mentis" then the data will be lost. The same goes for drives not in a RAID array, however there is only one layer of software caching in that case.
    So in case of a system lockup (in a game for example) it's highly possible to lose raid0 array. Is it true? (the raid0 array I mention here is the one that is in matrix raid with 2 disks)
    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho101 View Post
    RAID10 is mirrored sets in a striped set and can be set up with 2 disks bot there is zero performance increase until going to 4 disks.
    In that case what I wanna do is Raid10 not Raid1+0 according to your definition. But that zero performance issue confused me a bit. Won't I get any performance increase if I use matrix raid? My first try was not a success but there was a significant improvement in application launch times. Boot time of the OS didn't change because of the detection etc. times of the raid array. I have 3 identical disks (500 gb Samsung spinpoint F3) and I plan to use 2 as matrix raid, one raid0 for the OS and programs and one raid1 for the data. And use acronis to back up those to the 3rd disk. Should I go for it? If I won't get any performance improvement I keep using them in ide mode. Thank you again for your help.

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    Default Re: ICH10R Matrix Raid on EP45-DS3R in case of hard lock or hard reset?

    Note that RAID10 and RAID 1+0 are the same thing, it's RAID 0+1 that's different, and not supported on Intel ICH10R.

    There's always increased risk of data loss on a RAID 0 array because there is zero redundancy/parity. If one disk fails or the file system sustains unrecoverable damage then the whole array is lost. This is true for a RAID0 array of any size, from two disks to 10 disks and beyond. You should never put anything of importance on a RAID 0 array, it's best used for OS, Programs and Games. Data loss shouldn't be a problem if you regularly image the array. That way you can restore it in minutes. Unless you change the installed programs a heck of a lot, a once a week or maybe even more backup with acronis will be fine.

    Having said that I've run several RAID0 arays with both HDD and SSD's and have never had an issue. The major risk is a disk failing, not data loss from a crash. In all likelihood your RAID0 will be fine and even if at some point it isn't you can simply delete it, recreate an empty aray then re-image in about 10 minutes or less.

    In a RAID 1 array you must have at least two identical disks. RAID 1 is a mirrored array, so a copy of the data is written to both disks, ie you automatically have two coppies. It sounds like you want a RAID 0 aray and then have your RAID 1 aray keep a dynamic backup of that RAID0. Unfortunately that's impossible. The only way to mirror a striped array is either RAID10 or RAID 0+1. You could set up seperate RAID0 and RAID1 arays and keep your data soley on the RAID1 but again, that would require 4 disks, two for a RAID0 and two for a RAID1.

    The reason you get no performance increase is because RAID10 first creates a mirrored set of two drives, then another. It then stripes the two mirrors. I'll try to simplify, as it gets confusing for me too :) Say you have 4 500GB drives. In RAID10 it would set two pairs of drives as mirrors, so set 1 would both have a copy of identical data and set 2 would have a copy. the controler would then stripe both these mirrors, so any data written would be split in half. Half going to mirror 1 and half to mirror 2. This means that rather than a RAID 0 where each half of the data has no copy, the RAID10 does, so it has the performance of RAID0 (or near) and enough redundancy so that if one drive fails the aray will still work. RAID10 would not perform sifnificantly faster than single drives with only 2 disks because it would be impossible to be able to set up two mirrors and to stripe them. Striping is where performance gains are made and it basically means data is split up over x number of drives in chunks so that two disks read/write parts of the same file simultaniously.

    Also note that with RAID0 you get the total capacity of both drives to use, with RAID1 and 4 drive RAID10 you get half the capacity of the total space on all drives.

    It depends on what's important to you. It's safe enough to set up a RAID0 for your OS and programs. Don't store any data on it, use the third drive as data storage and back it up regularly. If you really want redundancy, you can buy another disk and set up a RAID10, meaninf that you can use the aray for OS, Programs and data and all receive the benefits of redundancy. Yet another way is to set up seperate RAID0 and RAID1 arays, which is also doable with 4 drives. Again, imaging the OS/programs drive is needed for a quickrestore but data is ultimately protected on the RAID1.

    Take a look here for a clear explanation of "Nested RAID" (combining RAID levels in one array eg 10, 0+1, 30, 50 etc): Nested RAID levels - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Default Re: ICH10R Matrix Raid on EP45-DS3R in case of hard lock or hard reset?

    Great info! ;) Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho101 View Post
    It sounds like you want a RAID 0 aray and then have your RAID 1 aray keep a dynamic backup of that RAID0. Unfortunately that's impossible.
    That's not the case. I just want to put my os and programs on raid0 and my data to raid1. And backup all to a third disk.

    Well afaik what I wanna do is a bit different than normal Raid10. With 2 disks I create a raid0 array with say half a capacity of the drive. Than create a raid1 with the remaining space. So this looks like raid10 but it's not. I guess 4 volumes are created and they are used 2by2 for the raid arrays(1+0). To the best of my knowledge those raid0 and raid1 arrays are independent from each other except sharing the same disks. If I'm wrong please correct me btw. Well I guess I'll go for it (still confused about that zero performance issue), but I'm sure I'll come here again soon to get help rebuilding my arrays :D

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    Default Re: ICH10R Matrix Raid on EP45-DS3R in case of hard lock or hard reset?

    I see. If you want a RAID0 array AND a RAID 1 array seperately and also a single backup disk then you definitely don't have enough drives. You need two physical drives for the RAID0 aray, two more disks for the RAID1 and one as the backup drive. You can't do RAID0 and RAID 1 on just two disks. You can partition disks to appear in windows as more than one drive, but that is just partitioning. RAID can't be used to make mixed type arays on different partiotions of the same physical disks.

    Just to re-cap:
    2 disks for your RAID0
    2 more for your RAID1
    1 for backup (ideally not inside the system but external, in an enclosure for extra safety.

    EDIT: Apparantly you CAN create two different aray types on one set of drives. However this isn't ideal. You can't set cache settings seperately for each drive. You would be covered in case of drive failure though.

    Make sure to set them up with the RAID0 portion at the beginning of each disk (by creating them first) then the RAID 1 portion after. This way the RAID0 part will be using the fastest parts of the disks.

    Note that you could run into problems if the drives aren't identical in model and capacity.
    Last edited by Psycho101; 11-03-2010 at 04:20 AM.
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    Default Re: ICH10R Matrix Raid on EP45-DS3R in case of hard lock or hard reset?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho101 View Post
    EDIT: Apparantly you CAN create two different aray types on one set of drives. However this isn't ideal. You can't set cache settings seperately for each drive. You would be covered in case of drive failure though.
    "Ideal" requires some money; a seperate raid card maybe :) Just wanna squeeze some more performance out of my disks, taking some risks though... In case of failure will I be able to recover my raid1 data (partitions)? I couldn't find a detailed explanation on intel's site.

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    Default Re: ICH10R Matrix Raid on EP45-DS3R in case of hard lock or hard reset?

    Quote Originally Posted by australis View Post
    Great info! ;) Thanks.


    That's not the case. I just want to put my os and programs on raid0 and my data to raid1. And backup all to a third disk.

    Well afaik what I wanna do is a bit different than normal Raid10. With 2 disks I create a raid0 array with say half a capacity of the drive. Than create a raid1 with the remaining space. So this looks like raid10 but it's not. I guess 4 volumes are created and they are used 2by2 for the raid arrays(1+0). To the best of my knowledge those raid0 and raid1 arrays are independent from each other except sharing the same disks. If I'm wrong please correct me btw. Well I guess I'll go for it (still confused about that zero performance issue), but I'm sure I'll come here again soon to get help rebuilding my arrays :D
    That is easily possible with the onboard chip, just create them exactly how you mentioned, I've done it in the past without issues.

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    Default Re: ICH10R Matrix Raid on EP45-DS3R in case of hard lock or hard reset?

    Heyy I thought you were not here anymore! Nice to hear from you :) Hope u'r well mate ;) Yes I've done it in the past too but with issues! :D Is it possible to recover my raid1 (matrix raid) array in case of a disk or read/write failure? My main concern was what happens in case of system lockups using a raid array. Psycho101 enlightened me with detailed explanations though :)

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