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Thread: Intel Core2 Quad: Q6600 vs Q8200 - Which is better?




  1. #81

    Default Re: Intel Core2 Quad: Q6600 vs Q8200 - Which is better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panarchy View Post
    ^He could be the best leader the American Government has ever had, for all I care. Yet still, merely for using that role (and not dismantling Government) I have lost all foreseeable respect for the man.
    Dismantling Government??? WHAT? Are you mad? Or do you just have WAY too much belief in the common person to always be responsible? Have you driven down the road lately? If your that confident in the common person, that attitude won't last 5 minutes in traffic. The whole concept of anarchy is silly in the extreme and terribly shortsighted. As soon as it happened, new power bases would form from whoever had the most guns/people, and most likely be FAR less benevolent then what we have to deal with today. Anarchy is ridiculously over rated. It cannot work or last.

    Edit: Democracy is as close to anarchy as can possibly happen and still allow human progress. Human nature is too controlling to allow such a state of chaos to continue over the long term. We, as a species, would never gain the stars, never become more then stupid animals fighting with our nieghbors and killing them over parking places. Without some system in place to govern human intensity, we're doomed to being nothing more then lightly furred monkeys with bad attitudes.
    Last edited by moshpit; 04-16-2009 at 01:52 AM.
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  2. #82
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    Default Re: Intel Core2 Quad: Q6600 vs Q8200 - Which is better?

    Hello

    WOW, never knew you the masses were so uneducated...

    The government is above the law, even though the government is ONLY a group (albeit a very large one), who is above the law.

    For instanced, they oppress and steal from all who is within there boundaries.

    For the aforementioned reasons ALONE (there are many other reasons to of course) we should 'get rid' of government.

    In place of government, we can finally have Anarchy. True Liberty. Free Market. Abolish all Government (and the taxes therein).

    When one earns money, one gets to keep that money. We will no longer be forced into imprisonment.

    The etymology of the word Anarchy is from the Greek: ἀναρχία anarchía, "without ruler", not the (wrong) definition, "Chaos".

    If you think that there would be no law after all this, read up on the 'Natural Law'.

    If you still aren't convinced, have a look at mises.org, and read a few articles. Also have a look at lewrockwell.com/.

    Hopefully everything I have just reason, will, at least, partially convince you that we would be better off without government.

    Yours Truly,

    Panarchy
    Last edited by Panarchy; 05-14-2009 at 05:40 PM.

  3. #83

    Default Re: Intel Core2 Quad: Q6600 vs Q8200 - Which is better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panarchy View Post
    Hello

    WOW, never knew you the masses were so uneducated...

    The government is above the law, even though the government is ONLY a group (albeit a very large one), who is above the law.

    For instanced, they oppress and steal from all who is within there boundaries.

    For the aforementioned reasons ALONE (there are many other reasons to of course) we should 'get rid' of government.

    In place of government, we can finally have Anarchy. True Liberty. Free Market. Abolish all Government (and the taxes therein).

    When one earns money, one gets to keep that money. We will no longer be forced into imprisonment.

    Reconsider the TRUE meaning of Anarchy (from the Greek; ἀναρχία anarchía, "without ruler"), not the (wrong) definition, "Chaos".

    If you think that there would be no law after all this, read up on the 'Natural Law'.

    If you still aren't convinced, have a look at mises.org, and read a few articles. Also have a look at lewrockwell.com/.

    Hopefully everything I have just reason, will, at least, partially convince you that we would be better off without government.

    Yours Truly,

    Panarchy
    Wow, never knew anybody was that ignorant of human nature. What you preach sounds wonderful in a world where everybody agrees to responsibly follow your rules. We're no where near such a world. There will be always be those who band together for power over those who don't. And that power comes from violence. Whether that violence is physical intimidation or imposed rules with a penalty system for breaking those rules. I prefer the later. The former is where the human race will go with your kind of thinking in these times.

    A side of me wishes the idealistic concepts you present were a possibility. But, they're not. The kind of mass rationality that stable anarchy requires to function is in the minority among our species. But wishful thinking doesn't change the reality of this world, that we need those "groups" in charge, and what we have now is at least more answerable to the people then what we all had 500 years ago, by a huge margin.

    Stable and responsible anarchy is an abstract concept only. It's impossible to implement in reality and have any human social\technological progress.
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  4. #84
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    Default Re: Intel Core2 Quad: Q6600 vs Q8200 - Which is better?

    If you don't think anarchy will work, because people don't agree to follow rules and disrespect property, then since government consists of these exact same people, the defence of government fails.

    Besides, since the supreme governmental and judicial decision makers are ultimately not governed by anyone, then they are in a state of anarchy themselves.

    For these two reason a defence of government based on the poor behaviour of some members of society fails doubly, for there is no reason to think that members of government will magically be different, or magically not be in a state of anarchy when their time to actually make a decision over others comes about.

    Panarchy

  5. #85

    Default Re: Intel Core2 Quad: Q6600 vs Q8200 - Which is better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panarchy View Post
    If you don't think anarchy will work, because people don't agree to follow rules and disrespect property, then since government consists of these exact same people, the defence of government fails.

    Besides, since the supreme governmental and judicial decision makers are ultimately not governed by anyone, then they are in a state of anarchy themselves.

    For these two reason a defence of government based on the poor behaviour of some members of society fails doubly, for there is no reason to think that members of government will magically be different, or magically not be in a state of anarchy when their time to actually make a decision over others comes about.

    Panarchy
    Your logic doubles back on itself. Government is a far better option then the chaos that would ensue without it. You make it sound like most people would act like they do now, they wouldn't. It would be FAR worse.

    I think, the main problem here is you have too much faith in people as a whole. I have too little. Maybe the answer is somewhere in between?
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  6. #86
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    Default Re: Intel Core2 Quad: Q6600 vs Q8200 - Which is better?

    I have a very low opinion of people. So I don't want them to rule over me. Why do you? Perhaps without one ruler, another ruler would come in. Maybe Hitler was better than Stalin, and he was for many, but defending him, or his legacy, does not then, necessarily, become the thing to do. Yes, I know that the magnitude of evil now in the world could be larger, but it could also be smaller. The point is: what principle or feature of government do you believe means that it would foster less evil than freely competing defence agencies in a free market?

    When you talk of the chaos that would ensue without government, how do you differentiate that from the chaos that ensues with government? Think of the number of people killed in WW2 (siege of Dresden, Hiroshima, etc), for example, or under communist and fascistic regimes employing the same principles as so-called democratic government. Also, try to imagine what would happen to an organisation, other than the U.S. government, if it tried to monopolise the issuing of money and also get itself in as much debt as it has now. Would it be allowed to go on?

    Panarchy

  7. #87

    Default Re: Intel Core2 Quad: Q6600 vs Q8200 - Which is better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panarchy View Post
    I have a very low opinion of people. So I don't want them to rule over me. Why do you? Perhaps without one ruler, another ruler would come in. Maybe Hitler was better than Stalin, and he was for many, but defending him, or his legacy, does not then, necessarily, become the thing to do. Yes, I know that the magnitude of evil now in the world could be larger, but it could also be smaller. The point is: what principle or feature of government do you believe means that it would foster less evil than freely competing defence agencies in a free market?

    When you talk of the chaos that would ensue without government, how do you differentiate that from the chaos that ensues with government? Think of the number of people killed in WW2 (siege of Dresden, Hiroshima, etc), for example, or under communist and fascistic regimes employing the same principles as so-called democratic government. Also, try to imagine what would happen to an organisation, other than the U.S. government, if it tried to monopolise the issuing of money and also get itself in as much debt as it has now. Would it be allowed to go on?

    Panarchy
    The chaos that ensues WITH government is a controlled chaos that only rarely spins out of control. Anarchy, on the other hand, is a CONSTANT state of chaos with zero social development and zero group accountability. So when large gangs of vicious gang bangers start taking over cities, there will be nobody to stop them or counter them. Anybody who tries, will become the thing your against, government.

    The people who died in WWII was 1/100th what would have happened had there been no US government to fight back. You have to consider people like Hitler will happen whether there's government or not. They'll make one. And if there's not one to oppose it, then they get to rule the world, not us. I don't like that idea one bit, nor should you.

    What your proposing will allow the worst of the worst to take over with nobody to oppose them. Anarchy like you propose is simply impossible, it cannot happen or work. Once you remove the existing governments, something else will rush in to fill the space and it won't be as pretty. The current form of government is an evolution of hundreds of years working towards human rights. From the early days of good kings versus bad kings, to the concept of no kings at all, we still have leaders. Right now, we have a small chance at getting to pick that leader. Your way will remove that and whoever convinces the most well armed red necks will rule instead. Sounds scary to me.
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  8. #88

    Default Re: Intel Core2 Quad: Q6600 vs Q8200 - Which is better?

    I should further add, that have a system of privately owned defense agencies like you suggest IS a form of government. And it's unregulated (since no over-watch organization is there, or that would qualify as a government as well). That means, if it chooses to just take over a town, it will. And nobody but another payed for agency will resist it, and only then if you pay them to. Government by mercs is what made Bush so bad.

    So what your advocating isn't anarchy at all. It's government by private firm. Total capatalism at the expense of accountability. Right now, Bush is in trouble. The US will HAVE to hold his staff accountable for possible war crimes. THAT is what I'm talking about. Any leadership/protection organization IS a government. It's how accountable that government is that's the real question, and your way throws that all out the door. Clean slate, all past wrongs forgotten and swept under the run. The real world doesn't work that way at all.

    Anarchy cannot exist. Any attempt to do so will result in a new form of government that may be far less answerable to us, the people. Clean slates arn't always a good thing, especially in evolution.

    1000 years from now, who knows. We, as a species, may be capable of handling the kind of responsibility you advocate. It's a wonderful thing to think about. But at our current point of development, we're nowhere near close to that yet.
    Last edited by moshpit; 05-12-2009 at 12:04 AM.
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  9. #89
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    Default Re: Intel Core2 Quad: Q6600 vs Q8200 - Which is better?

    To refocus our debate on the central issue: Anarchy is not synonymous with chaos. It simply refers to the absence of a monopolist of defence and jurisdiction within a territorial area, which is the definition of government. Instead of having a monopolist of defence and jurisdiction, what I am proposing is freely competing defence agencies.

    Monopolies produce inferior quality product at higher cost compared to products available in a market without any coercive barriers to entry. Yes, defence is very important, but so is clothing, sexual activities and food. Are you suggesting that government monopolise the production of those activities too? If not, why not?

    You say that anarchy like I propose will not work. Well, the private production of food, clothing, etc works quite well. Does it not?

    Finally, stop accusing me of being utopian and having so much faith in mankind. As I have told you, I have a very low opinion of most people, and I do not think it likely that a largely libertarian society will form any time soon. But this is something different to what we are arguing about: we are arguing about what society would be like with freely competing defence agencies rather than a monopolist of defence who does not allow any competitors. How to go about creating a libertarian society or how likely creating one is, is a different issue. What we are discussing is its desirability and the logical indefensbility of government.

    Panarchy

  10. #90

    Default Re: Intel Core2 Quad: Q6600 vs Q8200 - Which is better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panarchy View Post
    To refocus our debate on the central issue: Anarchy is not synonymous with chaos. It simply refers to the absence of a monopolist of defence and jurisdiction within a territorial area, which is the definition of government. Instead of having a monopolist of defence and jurisdiction, what I am proposing is freely competing defence agencies.

    Monopolies produce inferior quality product at higher cost compared to products available in a market without any coercive barriers to entry. Yes, defence is very important, but so is clothing, sexual activities and food. Are you suggesting that government monopolise the production of those activities too? If not, why not?

    You say that anarchy like I propose will not work. Well, the private production of food, clothing, etc works quite well. Does it not?

    Finally, stop accusing me of being utopian and having so much faith in mankind. As I have told you, I have a very low opinion of most people, and I do not think it likely that a largely libertarian society will form any time soon. But this is something different to what we are arguing about: we are arguing about what society would be like with freely competing defence agencies rather than a monopolist of defence who does not allow any competitors. How to go about creating a libertarian society or how likely creating one is, is a different issue. What we are discussing is its desirability and the logical indefensbility of government.

    Panarchy
    Society would fall apart. While I never directly accused you of being "utopian", I do think your ideas are VERY utopian. How can you claim to have no faith in humanity yet expect completely faithful cooperation among those same humans. Comparing industry to political power is not taking the full range of reaction into account.

    Who will keep those "freely competing defense agencies" from becoming the very thing your railing against? The group with the most guns, wins. Period. I kinda prefer being able to VOTE those leaders into place instead of them being hired. The system you describe would be 100 times more corrupt then the already ugly corrupt system in place now. What you describe is NOT an anarchy (which indeed DOES mean complete chaos, by the way, because that's what has ALWAYS historically happened when masses of humans have their own way, mob mentality), you instead describe a Corporate Government which is a HORRIBLE and scary concept to any freedom loving person. That is what would happen.

    Who regulates those "freely competing defense agencies" to prevent REAL corporate monopolies and abuses? Other "freely competing defense agencies"? That seems a little bit circular of an arguement I think. First off, WHAT company do YOU trust enough to let them be responsible for:

    1. providing protection to citizens from criminals?
    2. provide basic things like regulation of health, education, and utilities?
    3. actively defend the borders of the territory you live in from areas where your system ISN'T implemented and have kept their armies?
    4. catastrophy recovery and emergency service regulation and funding?

    And then, who regulates the regulators of the above points? Your system leaves too much to chance and assumes FAR too much goodness out of people then really exists. If your NOT a utopian, then I'm at a loss because your ideas are CERTAINLY utopian in nature.

    Edit: And by the way, NO, the private production of food, clothing, etc does NOT work well without regulation. Salmonilla anybody? How about a nice dose of naturally occuring Anthrax? Would have been nice to have a government HEALTH agency monitoring food supplies and issuing warnings when tainted food hits the shelves. Who pays for that agency? OH, taxes pay for that agency! Clothing, HMMMMM, can you say SWEAT FACTORIES? Those are illegal now. Your system makes them perfectly legal because there is no illegal anything. Laws? What laws? They'd be corporate rules. And we'd have no say over them. You wrongly assume we don't have that power now. That's an excuse. As an ex-service member, I know about all about exercising my rights. And have. So I call BS on your claim we have no power. We only don't have power when we give it up to "freely competing agencies" who are COMPANIES for the purpose of making money who will cut each others throats to compete. It's proven fact, unregulated markets implode eventually. Our current economy proves that. Bush and republicans pushed for unregulated markets and they crashed. Your way isn't any better. Without regulation by the people through a central organization, there would be no accountability.
    Last edited by moshpit; 05-14-2009 at 11:02 AM.
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