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Thread: MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) Overclocking Results




  1. #71
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    Default Re: MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) Overclocking Results

    Hey ProfJim.

    RE your temps at the VRM area of your card. It seems that they produce heat so readily that not only are the heatsinks you added getting warm and conducting heat away from them, but the PCB and its copper layers are absorbing a fair amount, leading to warm temps at the back of the card.

    I saw a video recently where a guy was modding the VRM area cooling on the Gigabyte GTX-460> I was interested because I have two cards and get the classic VRM overheating reboots when I try and push past ~875 core. He used a pair of aftermarket VRM coolers (one large sink) and bolts that passed through the card. In effect, he sandwitched the VRMs between the two heatsinks, tightening the bolts carefully and using a thicker thermal tape at the back so that decent enough contact was made to the PCB dispite the protruding solder points.

    No temp measurements were given, but it at least sounds like it may work. However the solder points/component legs of your chokes look as if they stick out a bit more than on the Gigabyte cards.

    Thinking of doing my own cooling mods soon. Nothing too advanced. I might change the Windforce coolers to an after market solution, as long as they're SLI compatible. After the trouble I had wiith my HD4850 and the Thermalright T-Rad2 warping the card though, I'm going to choose carefully.

    I'm begining to wish I'd kept my stock coolers for those 4850's, then I could have tried to use my Scythe Musashi coolers on these cards. All the people who've changed the Windforce coolers on their 460's have seen big drops at heavy OC's. Seems like they cooler is excellent at the factory OC speeds and voltage, but at a certain limit, becomes not so effective. There's only so much an aluminium base, two heat pipes and a relatively small fin array can do I suppose. Not much room for RAM sinks either.
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  2. #72
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    Default Re: MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) Overclocking Results

    Psycho101, Good to hear from you. There's lots of good information in your post.
    I checked out the Scythe Musashi cooler and it looks like they're not a bolt on affair with newer cards. The raised fin area looks promising for adding additional heatsinks, but the overall size of the cooler looks like it might be a two and one half slot solution. This got me thinking about possibly putting an 8mm thick machined copper spacer between the gpu and the Hawk's cooling fin assembly to make it possible to add heatsinks to the Vram chips and the oh so hot chokes. Doing this would probably degrade the gpu cooling somewhat and take up a little more than two slots.

    Using a pair of copper heatsinks with a bolt through setup for video cards that have through holes for secure mounting looks like a great solution. The Hawk doesn't have any holes for the mounting bolts. The MSI 460 Cyclone does have these holes and its gpu cooler looks to more agreeable to the dual heatsink bolt together setup. The Hawk's gpu heatsink and fans offer excellent gpu cooling and fan noise with the fans at maximum speeds (~ 4600 rpm) is reasonably quiet. It's too bad that the clearance between the cooling fins and the chokes and some memory chips is less than 3mm.

    I'm toying with the idea of using a 5 - 6mm thick thermal pad on the back of the card to further cool the chokes, capacitors and possibly the VRM chips. The Seasonic X-series power supplies use a thick thermal pad on the underside of the pcb that allows the four 12 volt high output mosfets to use the psu case as a heatsink. It might be possible to attach two pieces of flat stock to the mounting screws that secure the gpu. These pieces might be able to apply enough pressure to the heatsinks that would sit on top of the thick thermal pad. I'm beginning to think that this whole heatsink project is beginning to get a bit out of hand.

    I haven't had any overheating VRM reboots (yet), but that's probably because the longest running benchmark (Stalker) only runs for about 12 minutes. The Heaven benchmark only takes 4m20s to run, but when testing at 900MHz or higher speeds, I often get the D3D11 device removed error when Heaven freezes after ~ 3m28s. At 19 - 20 degrees (C), the gpu temperature normally tops out at 54 (C). During these tests I noticed that the default fan profile tops out at ~65% of the maximum 4600 rpm. I decided to get some free additional cooling by using AfterBurner to lock the fan speed at 100%. With 900/4200MHz gpu/memory settings, Heaven completed three consecutive test loops and then barfed at 3m27s of the fourth loop. Maximum gpu temp during this test was 49 - 50 (C). My RC-690 (original) case has two 140mm, 1000 rpm, 54 CFM fans attached to the side of the case. So I says to myself "Why not try some serious additional cooling?" OK, it's a bit of overkill, but I installed a 2200 rpm, 89.5 CFM Xigmatek fan in the lower front side case position to really add some serious ambient air...BIG MSITAKE!!! GPU temperatures quickly rose to 67 (C) and Heaven froze after running for 2m30s. Oh well, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Clearly bigger (or more) isn't always better. It looks like almost 90 CFM aimed at the Hawk really disrupted the twin gfx fans.

    I unplugged the Xigmatek fan an re-ran the 900/4200 test for just over one hour (14 loops) with no problem. GPU temps were 54 - 55 degrees (C) for the duration of the test. Finally, I've reached my goal to be able to run at somewhat higher overclocks with better cooling.

    My "standard" Heaven test setup is:
    • Stereo 3D = Disabled
    • API = DX11
    • Shaders = High
    • Tessellation = Normal
    • Anisotropy = 4
    • Anti-aliasing = Off
    • Full Screen
    • Resolution = 1920 x 1080

    The 7 fan cooling setup is:
    • Front Intake: 1x 120mm Scythe S-Flex SFF21F 65 CFM, 1600 rpm
    • Rear: Exhaust 1x 120mm Cooler Master ~ 50 CFM, 1200 rpm
    • Top: Exhaust 2x 140mm AeroCool StreamLiner 54 CFM, 1000 rpm
    • Side Intake: 2x 140mm AeroCool StreamLiner 54 CFM, 1000 rpm
    • Bottom Intake: 1x 120mm Scythe S-Flex SFF21F 65 CFM, 1600 rpm

    PSU is bottom mounted and draws outside air from the bottom of the case.

    The Scythe S-Flex fans are very quiet and undervolt very well.
    The rear Coolermaster and the lower side AeroCool fan will be replaced with S-Flex fans.
    Additional testing with a negative flow case fan setup will be tested next to see if this provides better overall gpu and VRM cooling.

    Additional cooling tests to be performed:
    1. Replace current aluminum heatsinks with forged copper heatsinks.
    2. Fabricate a fan shroud to provide outside cooling air directly to the VRM/choke/capacitor portion of the backside of the printed circuit board.
    3. Intall a thick thermal pad and copper heatsinks to the backside of the VRM/choke/capacitor area.

    By the time I've completed and tested these mods, someone will probably offer a kit that easily and quickly installs on the Hawk.

    MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) Overclocking Results-rc-690-thermal-pad-d3d11-fatal-error-800x-jpg
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  3. #73
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    Default Re: MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) Overclocking Results

    Searching for a 4mm - 6mm thick thermal pad is turning out to be a PITA. Thermal pads that are 0.5, 1.0 or 1.5mm thick are readily available. The soldered choke and capacitor pins on the back of the PCB are about 2mm tall. If a heatsink contacts any of these pins, a fatal short circuit will probably nuke the Hawk. I have an older aluminum cpu heatsink and fan from an ancient K6 or PIII system. An ideal setup would be to use a 50mm x 50mm pure copper cpu heatsink from one of these older systems that is only 10 - 12mm tall. There is a good chance that the motherboard ram modules will interfere with the "custom" cpu heatsink installed on the back of the video card.

    I'm going to test the cooling performance with a 50mm fan placed at the end of the Hawk next to the dual 6-pin power cables. The bottom of the fan will be about 10mm below the Hawk's PCB to provide some cooling to the accessory heatsinks that are already attached to the VRM mosfets. The upper portion of the fan will provide cooling to the hot area of the back of the PCB and force the excess heat to the rear of the computer case.

    The attached picture should make it clear that there really is a method to my madness.

    MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) Overclocking Results-msi-n460gtx-hawk-pcb-bottom-view-hq-768x1237-jpg
    Q9650 @ 4.10GHz [9x456MHz]
    P35-DS4 [rev: 2.0] ~ Bios: F14
    4x2GB OCZ Reaper PC2-8500 1094MHz @5-5-5-15
    MSI N460GTX Hawk Talon Attack (1GB) video card <---- SLI ---->
    Seasonic SS-660XP2 80 Plus Platinum psu (660w)
    WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data)
    Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD (boot)
    SLI @ 16/4 works when running HyperSLI
    Cooler Master 120XL Seidon push/pull AIO cpu water cooling
    Cooler Master HAF XB computer case (RC-902XB-KKN1)
    Asus VH242H 24" monitor [1920x1080]
    MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) video card
    Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium
    HT|Omega Claro plus+ sound card
    CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD UPS
    E6300 (R0) @ 3.504GHz [8x438MHz] ~~ P35-DS3L [rev: 1.0] ~ Bios: F9 ~~ 4x2GB Kingston HyperX T1 PC2-8500, 876MHz @4-4-4-10
    Seasonic X650 80+ gold psu (650w) ~~ Xigmatek Balder HDT 1283 cpu cooler ~~ Cooler Master CM 690 case (RC-690-KKN1-GP)
    Samsung 830 128GB SSD MZ-7PC128B/WW (boot) ~~ WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data) ~~ ZM-MFC2 fan controller
    HT|Omega Striker 7.1 sound card ~~ Asus VH242H monitor [1920x1080] ~~ Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
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    .


  4. #74
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    Default Re: MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) Overclocking Results

    For thicker material, you may have to look at general electronics and industrial electronics outlets.

    For example, the kind of stuf you'd find in a mains transformer assembly heatsink. Thay call them Gap Fillers. Half a centimetre is usually the max thickness, like the stuff detailed here: Tflex™ 200 V0 Series Gap Filler Material on Laird Technologies

    It's electrically insulating and strong enough to be compressed over component legs without them breaking through and shoting. It should also be possible to stack them, as they're semi pliable and naturally tacky. As long as you don't get any air bubbles in between, the action of fitting the heatsink will compress the material anough so that any air will be expelled.
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  5. #75
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    Thumbs up Re: MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) Overclocking Results

    Psycho,
    Thanks for the link to Laird Technologies. They have sales offices in Europe, Asia and America. I'll be contacting them to see which of their Flex thermal gap filler solutions will be best for use with the video card. It doesn't look like they sell to individuals, but I'm going to call them. Thanks again.
    Q9650 @ 4.10GHz [9x456MHz]
    P35-DS4 [rev: 2.0] ~ Bios: F14
    4x2GB OCZ Reaper PC2-8500 1094MHz @5-5-5-15
    MSI N460GTX Hawk Talon Attack (1GB) video card <---- SLI ---->
    Seasonic SS-660XP2 80 Plus Platinum psu (660w)
    WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data)
    Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD (boot)
    SLI @ 16/4 works when running HyperSLI
    Cooler Master 120XL Seidon push/pull AIO cpu water cooling
    Cooler Master HAF XB computer case (RC-902XB-KKN1)
    Asus VH242H 24" monitor [1920x1080]
    MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) video card
    Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium
    HT|Omega Claro plus+ sound card
    CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD UPS
    E6300 (R0) @ 3.504GHz [8x438MHz] ~~ P35-DS3L [rev: 1.0] ~ Bios: F9 ~~ 4x2GB Kingston HyperX T1 PC2-8500, 876MHz @4-4-4-10
    Seasonic X650 80+ gold psu (650w) ~~ Xigmatek Balder HDT 1283 cpu cooler ~~ Cooler Master CM 690 case (RC-690-KKN1-GP)
    Samsung 830 128GB SSD MZ-7PC128B/WW (boot) ~~ WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data) ~~ ZM-MFC2 fan controller
    HT|Omega Striker 7.1 sound card ~~ Asus VH242H monitor [1920x1080] ~~ Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
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  6. #76
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    Default Re: MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) Overclocking Results

    Glad you found them useful. I found them from a web address stuck to the side of a power box at work (we use 400V 3 phase as well as standard UK 230V). The box was re-worked/reconditioned by a local firm that exclusively use their industrial grade sinks and TIM etc.
    Coolermaster CM 690 II advance Case
    Corsair HX750 (CWT, 91%(80+ Gold rated @230V) single 62A 12V rail
    P55A-UD4 v2.0 @ F14
    Core i5 760 @ 20 x 201, 4.02GHz
    TRUE Black with a single Noctua NF-P12 pumping out 55 CFM @ 19db .
    2 x 2GB Mushkin Ridgeback (996902), @ 7-10-8-27, 2010-DDR, 1.66v
    2 x Gigabyte GTX 460 1024MB in SLI (Pre OC'd to 715MHz core and 1800MHz VRAM) @ 850 Core / 4100 Mem.
    Intel X25-M Boot Drive (OS and Programs) 200MB/s Read & 90MB/s Write
    Corsair X32 200MB/s Read & 100MB/s Write
    WD Caviar Blue 640GB C (Steam, Games, Storage, Temp Files & Folders, etc)
    Samsung F3 500GB Backup/Images
    Noctua 1300RPM 19dB case fan (rear extraction)
    3 x 140 MM Coolermaster LED fans (one front intake, one top extraction, one side intake)
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  7. #77
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    Default Re: MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) Overclocking Results

    Psycho, what's the efficiency rating for your 80+ gold rated psu when connected to 400 volts?
    Q9650 @ 4.10GHz [9x456MHz]
    P35-DS4 [rev: 2.0] ~ Bios: F14
    4x2GB OCZ Reaper PC2-8500 1094MHz @5-5-5-15
    MSI N460GTX Hawk Talon Attack (1GB) video card <---- SLI ---->
    Seasonic SS-660XP2 80 Plus Platinum psu (660w)
    WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data)
    Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD (boot)
    SLI @ 16/4 works when running HyperSLI
    Cooler Master 120XL Seidon push/pull AIO cpu water cooling
    Cooler Master HAF XB computer case (RC-902XB-KKN1)
    Asus VH242H 24" monitor [1920x1080]
    MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) video card
    Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium
    HT|Omega Claro plus+ sound card
    CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD UPS
    E6300 (R0) @ 3.504GHz [8x438MHz] ~~ P35-DS3L [rev: 1.0] ~ Bios: F9 ~~ 4x2GB Kingston HyperX T1 PC2-8500, 876MHz @4-4-4-10
    Seasonic X650 80+ gold psu (650w) ~~ Xigmatek Balder HDT 1283 cpu cooler ~~ Cooler Master CM 690 case (RC-690-KKN1-GP)
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  8. #78
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    Default Re: MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) Overclocking Results

    120%. At 400V it powers my PC and the fire shooting out the vents cooks my toast.
    Coolermaster CM 690 II advance Case
    Corsair HX750 (CWT, 91%(80+ Gold rated @230V) single 62A 12V rail
    P55A-UD4 v2.0 @ F14
    Core i5 760 @ 20 x 201, 4.02GHz
    TRUE Black with a single Noctua NF-P12 pumping out 55 CFM @ 19db .
    2 x 2GB Mushkin Ridgeback (996902), @ 7-10-8-27, 2010-DDR, 1.66v
    2 x Gigabyte GTX 460 1024MB in SLI (Pre OC'd to 715MHz core and 1800MHz VRAM) @ 850 Core / 4100 Mem.
    Intel X25-M Boot Drive (OS and Programs) 200MB/s Read & 90MB/s Write
    Corsair X32 200MB/s Read & 100MB/s Write
    WD Caviar Blue 640GB C (Steam, Games, Storage, Temp Files & Folders, etc)
    Samsung F3 500GB Backup/Images
    Noctua 1300RPM 19dB case fan (rear extraction)
    3 x 140 MM Coolermaster LED fans (one front intake, one top extraction, one side intake)
    Dell Ultra Sharp 2209WAf E-IPS @ 1680x1050

  9. #79
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    Default Re: MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) Overclocking Results

    I need to do some surgery on my system before I can test with a fan blowing across the back side of the pcb, as my fan controller won't adjust any of the fan speeds. This isn't a big deal because I can install a spare fan controller if needed. To make room for a fan to blow air across the video card towards the back of the computer case, I need to perform some cable management tweaks so that there will be an unobstructed air flow path on the intake and exhaust sides of the new fan.

    I can test with an old 50mm cpu fan or use the 92mm fan from my Arctic Cooling Freezer Pro 7 Rev 2 cpu cooler. An 80mm fan would probably be ideal. I'm going to try the 92mm first. Installation would be much easier if the Hawk's two pci-e power cable connections were at the top of the card instead of at the back of the card.

    I'll probably buy an Arctic Cooling 80mm or 92mm case fan as a permanent solution. Check out Newegg.com - Arctic Cooling Case Fans. If a 120mm case fan can fit, I'll test with one of my spare Scythe S-Flex 1600 rpm fans. What can I say, I really like quiet FDB fans (Fluid Dynamic Bearings).

    I'll contact Laird Technologies on Tuesday, after our Memorial Day holiday on Monday to see if they will send me one of their 5mm thick thermal gap filler pads.

    Stay tuned, the never ending Hawk overclocking/vrm cooling saga will continue....
    Q9650 @ 4.10GHz [9x456MHz]
    P35-DS4 [rev: 2.0] ~ Bios: F14
    4x2GB OCZ Reaper PC2-8500 1094MHz @5-5-5-15
    MSI N460GTX Hawk Talon Attack (1GB) video card <---- SLI ---->
    Seasonic SS-660XP2 80 Plus Platinum psu (660w)
    WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data)
    Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD (boot)
    SLI @ 16/4 works when running HyperSLI
    Cooler Master 120XL Seidon push/pull AIO cpu water cooling
    Cooler Master HAF XB computer case (RC-902XB-KKN1)
    Asus VH242H 24" monitor [1920x1080]
    MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) video card
    Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium
    HT|Omega Claro plus+ sound card
    CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD UPS
    E6300 (R0) @ 3.504GHz [8x438MHz] ~~ P35-DS3L [rev: 1.0] ~ Bios: F9 ~~ 4x2GB Kingston HyperX T1 PC2-8500, 876MHz @4-4-4-10
    Seasonic X650 80+ gold psu (650w) ~~ Xigmatek Balder HDT 1283 cpu cooler ~~ Cooler Master CM 690 case (RC-690-KKN1-GP)
    Samsung 830 128GB SSD MZ-7PC128B/WW (boot) ~~ WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data) ~~ ZM-MFC2 fan controller
    HT|Omega Striker 7.1 sound card ~~ Asus VH242H monitor [1920x1080] ~~ Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
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    .


  10. #80
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    Default Re: MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) Overclocking Results

    Brief update:
    Surgery is complete; cable management redo, 92mm fan is mounted at the back of the card to add more cooling to the vrm/choke area, installed a new optical drive and sound card, and everything works except for my flopsy drive.

    The 92mm Arctic Cooling cpu fan is connected to the sys_fan2 pwm mobo header and is silent at 1100+ rpm. Hawk temperatures at the win7 desktop are slightly lower. I'll post a picture of the installed fan's temporary setup which will show the clearance between the backside of the Hawk's printed circuit board and my too tall (61mm) HyperX T1 memory with my P35-DS3L motherboard. A guestimate is that there is about 13 - 16 mm ( 1/2 - 5/8") clearance, so there won't be a problem using a 5mm thick thermal gap filler pad with a 10 - 12mm tall heatsink, where the thermal pad will be compressed a maximum of 2mm.

    Re MSI 560 Ti video cards:
    Two of the MSI 560 cards appear to have a nearly identical pcb layout to the 460 Hawk pcb, so the thermal cooling solutions I'm using will probably work with an MSI 560 card. There might be a problem if your motherboad's pci-e video card slot is closer to the memory slots than on my system. The Cooler Master RC-690 case has about 60mm (2.33") of clearance from the end of the Hawk to the hard drive/optical drive cages. You'll see from the photos that this distance does NOT include the space required for both pci-e power cables.

    Time to go take some photos.....
    Last edited by profJim; 05-31-2011 at 11:49 AM.
    Q9650 @ 4.10GHz [9x456MHz]
    P35-DS4 [rev: 2.0] ~ Bios: F14
    4x2GB OCZ Reaper PC2-8500 1094MHz @5-5-5-15
    MSI N460GTX Hawk Talon Attack (1GB) video card <---- SLI ---->
    Seasonic SS-660XP2 80 Plus Platinum psu (660w)
    WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data)
    Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD (boot)
    SLI @ 16/4 works when running HyperSLI
    Cooler Master 120XL Seidon push/pull AIO cpu water cooling
    Cooler Master HAF XB computer case (RC-902XB-KKN1)
    Asus VH242H 24" monitor [1920x1080]
    MSI N460GTX Hawk (1GB) video card
    Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium
    HT|Omega Claro plus+ sound card
    CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD UPS
    E6300 (R0) @ 3.504GHz [8x438MHz] ~~ P35-DS3L [rev: 1.0] ~ Bios: F9 ~~ 4x2GB Kingston HyperX T1 PC2-8500, 876MHz @4-4-4-10
    Seasonic X650 80+ gold psu (650w) ~~ Xigmatek Balder HDT 1283 cpu cooler ~~ Cooler Master CM 690 case (RC-690-KKN1-GP)
    Samsung 830 128GB SSD MZ-7PC128B/WW (boot) ~~ WD Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB (data) ~~ ZM-MFC2 fan controller
    HT|Omega Striker 7.1 sound card ~~ Asus VH242H monitor [1920x1080] ~~ Logitech Z-5500 Digital 5.1 Speakers
    win7 x64 sp1 Home Premium ~~ CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD U.P.S
    .


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